Simran Deep Singh: The Body Has a Language of Its Own

Adeel Ahmad [0:02]: Great. Okay. Well then I guess I can say Simron, welcome to the podcast. Great to have you here.

Simran Deep Singh [0:08]: Great to be here, thank you.

Adeel Ahmad [0:11]: Yeah. So yeah, you came to my attention because I've yeah, I found found this paper that you that you recently did. and yeah, I'd love to dig into that. But first do you kinda wanna sh share a little bit with the audience, kind of roughly, maybe where you're located, kind of what what you do.

Simran Deep Singh [0:31]: So I'm a third year PhD student. Before I go into that actually, I would just like to give a disclaimer. I am recovering from a sore throat and my voice is slightly itchy. So if in case I do end up making sounds which are not comfortable, just I'm so sorry in advance. But I think it should mostly be fine.

Adeel Ahmad [0:56]: yeah, no. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Yeah, it it sounds fine to me, but I also edit all of these after the fact. So, you know, if there's if there's any even healthy people, I'll edit little little sounds out. So don't worry about that. yeah, I should've mentioned that up front. So yeah, don't let that hold you back. So but yeah, if I'll I but if you need to take a break to I don't know, take water or medicine, feel free. Okay, yeah, please continue.

Simran Deep Singh [1:04]: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you so much. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Right, so I'm a third year PhD student at the University of Sussex in the UK and I'm researching on misophonia essentially and that's... Just about it. think people have often asked me what makes me want to work on Misophonia and my answer has been more or less same. That I have Misophonia and I felt like the research and literature and conversations around it, which already is very less, but whatever conversations that were out there, felt to me very detached from the very real life implications of it. And I just wanted some answers for myself, but I could not find them. And I just decided that maybe like I can do that. I like research. I like reading and writing and thinking. So why not do a PhD out of it? Yeah.

Adeel Ahmad [2:24]: Yeah. No, that's fascinating. and yeah, one of the reasons why your paper stuck out to me 'cause it just happened to be around the same time that I've also been reading a lot about the more you know, the history of psychoanalytics, psychodynamics, and also just noticing that a lot of the research and conversation today is really about like you said actually, I think in your conclusion, like

Simran Deep Singh [2:42]: Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [2:55]: It's it's it's pain management, discomfort management. It's v very much like post onset. How do we how do we just like nip this in the bud? How do we just smother this away and get rid of it and attack it almost a really like a a medical issue, like a defect? And so you know, obviously doing a lot of conversations on the podcast and talking with you know, people who have

Simran Deep Singh [3:07]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [3:21]: other ways of thinking about misophonia. I'm s I've been starting to think about well is misophonia trying to send us a message or a signal about something in a way that you know evolved over time before we had a chance to you know scientifically analyze stuff or or you know be able to kind of f you know figure out s solve some of the problems that Misophonia might be trying to point out. and before I go before I go and stumble over my own words, yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit yeah, more about your your your perspective on on Misophonia.

Simran Deep Singh [3:52]: Mm-hmm. I mean, my perspectives are many and they keep evolving day by day. I think when I was starting off my research, so I have done my master's research was also on misophonia, but I think at the time it just felt like I was intrigued by the fact that for

Adeel Ahmad [4:09]: Yeah.

Simran Deep Singh [4:24]: because of my limited knowledge of course and my just my own lived experience but it felt to me that it was mainly specifically human produced sounds which were triggering and that made me so interested in the topic not just because I struggle with it but because it's just so fascinating as a concept and at the time I think I had more or less some vague conceptualization about it that if

Adeel Ahmad [4:44]: Mm-hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [4:52]: let's say, relationship dynamics with certain people are more hard on a person, there are chances that anything and whatever they do might just be very difficult to bear. And likewise, because there is this difficulty of bearing them, there will be potentially more conflicts in those relationships. However, I think now Basically, I think at the time I had this understanding that it has something to do with the dynamic and complexity of relationships and conflicts and tensions and stuff, which I also still feel may be true to some extent, but I think of late my more evolved experience and understanding of it has been that it does not really matter about if there's conflict on a relationship or not. It's about how much that relationship means to you. For me, I mean. And if the relationship is meaningful and you have more contact there, more intimacy there, more frequency there, and more stakes involved, I think there are chances that there would be things that would be uncomfortable. And perhaps, at least this... has been my experience that I find it really hard to voice my discomfort. So I had a friend who recently, like a couple of months, made a joke about it, which I kind of actually stayed with me, but to more or less said that it's almost like you don't have the words to be assertive, but your body has an entire language of its own. And this is how it is demanding for you to be assertive. Because if I'm not assertive, There it is. They are breathing and I'm triggered. I don't want them to breathe anymore. But not in a way of like, I don't want this person to exist, just essentially that the sound they are making is really hard to bear. Or anything they are doing is really difficult to bear. So I think that's where I am right now with my understanding of it.

Adeel Ahmad [7:20]: Yes, that's a very fascinating concept. the a language of the body. and that I think is kind of how I've yeah, my thinking has kind of evolved as well. where it's it's it's some kind of a a message that needs to be sent out. And we we think of messages as like, you know, the languages we know verbally, but the body has other other ways of expressing itself to tell you something. Is that kind of where you kind of a good Well, some of the a summary of what you and your your friend kind of like figured out.

Simran Deep Singh [7:52]: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Adeel Ahmad [7:58]: Interesting. So yeah, 'cause I think you in in your paper paper which I'd love to kinda get into a little bit because I think it was kind of a review. Unless and I'd love to hear like maybe how and I think maybe you just described it like how your thinking has evolved since then, but you you did mention like, you know, a disruption of intimacy, kind of like unspoke even in the in the yeah, ear early on you were talking about unspoken conflicts,

Simran Deep Singh [8:06]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [8:26]: Do wanna kinda talk about what you found in the review? And and you know, like you said earlier on, there isn't first of all, there isn't that much research and even less about these kinds of ideas, like what did you find in your review and and yeah, just kind of maybe summarize for the audience who have have who haven't read the paper yet.

Simran Deep Singh [8:36]: Mm-hmm. I think I would just like to clarify that I don't think that paper is necessarily a review. It's a perspective and and the I think maybe a some context to that perspective and it's writing is that like there's some layers to it that I would like to bring up. But essentially I moved to the UK in 2024.

Adeel Ahmad [8:54]: Okay, gotcha.

Simran Deep Singh [9:13]: And up until then, my mesophonia was really unbearable and my mesophonia is very relational. when I came to the UK, as in by relational, I mean, it's very specific people who constantly trigger me. But with other people, it's more or less manageable. And I don't feel like I'm losing it every time I'm around them. But when I moved to the UK for a good seven, eight months, I was like.

Adeel Ahmad [9:26]: Yeah. Mm.

Simran Deep Singh [9:40]: damn it's like my mesophonia has just evaporated it's just cured did i just needed did i just really needed continental distance from you know the people who trigger me is that what the cure is for it but like funnily enough i mean just to clarify did come back i mean that's how my conceptualization of it has evolved as well but i wrote this essay the perspective when i went back to my home

Adeel Ahmad [9:44]: Mm-hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [10:09]: and home for me is in India. And I went back after probably nine months to visit my family again. And of course, probably after like seven, 10 days, things started becoming difficult again. And right before me going to India, I was also doing a lot of literature review. And I came across a really brilliant paper called, I'm not remembering the exact title of it, but it's... something along the lines of civilizations of manners and misophonia by a French professor who I recently had a chance to meet actually, where he elaborated on his perspective was about there's so much mannerism and etiquettes and morality involved when we are thinking about misophonia, which was.

Adeel Ahmad [10:41]: Mm.

Simran Deep Singh [11:05]: I think in the moment it was just the most brilliant piece of work, literature I've ever read and that had inspired me. And also the fact that I was reading so much just made me feel like I needed to write down what I'm thinking. And that's how this paper came to be. I think it's just different things that I read here and there, different things that I was feeling, different things that I was thinking that I decided to pen down as a project of leisure writing slash journaling. So it was never intended to be a publication. But after I got it done, I was like, I think it actually kind of looks nice. It looks, it feels really brilliant. And I, yeah, I got it published. But it was never intended to be any kind of academic writing.

Adeel Ahmad [11:34]: Yeah. Yeah, no, it's it's fascinating. It definitely it's definitely more than just looks nice. yeah, encouragement. And I w I wanna read that civilization one as well. That reminds me of like something Freudian, like civilization and its malcontents or discontents or whatever. yeah.

Simran Deep Singh [12:04]: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think I can share it with you afterwards if you'd like.

Adeel Ahmad [12:11]: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that'd be great. well I since you maybe we can take a little detour and to hear about y early days for you in India. it's interesting, yeah, you had I mean I didn't grow up in India, but obviously I was in a similar kind of culture. And then when I went off to university as well, it kind of like magically disappeared and then then it would come back. But

Simran Deep Singh [12:19]: Yeah. Hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [12:37]: Yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit about kind of early days for you, kinda onset, when you start to notice it and and kinda how it how it developed.

Simran Deep Singh [12:46]: For me, think my earliest memory of it has been probably when I was 19 or 18 around the time. I do know for a fact that people have reported that it has begun, it begins really early in the life, but that has not been my case, which has always intrigued me, of course. But I think the time of my life and this

Adeel Ahmad [12:58]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [13:16]: became very obvious and visible to me was the time where I felt more visible to myself as a person and I had just started my bachelor's and I was probably just developing a very strong sense of myself back then being able to step out from a familial setting to challenging stuff I mean like we all grew up in the same school for like I mean in my case like in the same school for like 10, 12 years and then suddenly being sent out in a very different kind of wild world was maybe shocking to my nervous system is what I would probably say. But around the time, I think just one random evening during exams, I was just lying down and I was having conversations with my mother and I think at some point I just started noticing that the clock is ticking too loudly in the room and I think I might have just asked her that is that like bothering you and she was like no and I was like is it loud she was like I don't think so I was like I see that's why that's my very vivid but very context less memory because I don't know what happened afterwards or before that like I don't even know if I was having a particularly tensing tensed conversation with my mom or something

Adeel Ahmad [14:17]: Yeah. Yeah.

Simran Deep Singh [14:44]: But yeah, I think I do remember that it was somewhere around examination period. So probably I was stressed.

Adeel Ahmad [14:52]: Gotcha. Okay. So around exam time and and it sounds like in India there you said like you're kind of like in the same school and kind of maybe a s same a similar environment all the way through to like around age eighteen, nineteen.

Simran Deep Singh [15:09]: For me, yeah, I mean it could be different from people to people but for me it was more or less same that I was in the same school for 12 years.

Adeel Ahmad [15:10]: Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. And anything else happening in your life that was, I don't know, unusual or of note or cause of some stress to the nervous system?

Simran Deep Singh [15:28]: Hmm. I mean, the only thing I can think of is really the fact that I was stepping out and becoming more of a real, visible person. Not just to others, but to myself. I started having thoughts which were not depressing, is how I would like to say. I was able to think about the world in a different perspective. I think all of it was challenging, overwhelming. The capacity to...

Adeel Ahmad [15:39]: Yeah.

Simran Deep Singh [15:57]: be able to feel other things other than sadness.

Adeel Ahmad [16:02]: Hmm. Yeah, that's fascinating. I don't just thinking out loud, you know, a lot of a lot of times here in in especially in America where you kind of hear more more about misophonia, it's onsets around kind of like, you know, middle school. And that's kind of where you're switching from elementary to

Simran Deep Singh [16:19]: Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [16:22]: you know, junior high and high school and you're bombarded with all this media and culture about like how you're supposed to feel kind of like angsty and depressed and and you know the consumerism like hyp up and I feel like and that's that was also around the time when I was starting to kind of like absorb media that was more about, you know, thinking differently than than my home environment. I'm I'm just trying to I don't know, thinking out loud making connections between you know

Simran Deep Singh [16:47]: Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [16:52]: w what what else changes in the environment of a person who might be sensitive and starting to experience misophonia? I don't know. It could be something I'll just keep evolving and thinking about, but but yeah, I mean and the what little un unfortunately what little I know about India is that it there is a lot of like you know staying in I think I don't know staying in the same schools kind of staying in a you know your your family's

Simran Deep Singh [17:05]: Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [17:20]: are generally a little bit larger and so there's maybe more of a a cocoon longer. I don't know.

Simran Deep Singh [17:28]: Yeah, yeah, I think I definitely agree with that. do have more, I know as kids we do have more dependence and reliance on our parents.

Adeel Ahmad [17:41]: Mm.

Simran Deep Singh [17:43]: parents and caregivers. And yes, we do have large families, but that was not my case. I grew up in a nuclear household. So I was pretty much isolated by from the bigger parts of my family, actually. The mysteries of my misophonia has always intrigued me, hence how here I am.

Adeel Ahmad [17:50]: Mm. Mm-hmm. Gotcha, gotcha. okay. Yeah. No, that's fascinating. but I love yeah, I mean I love the people like you are thinking about these kinds of ideas. and that's good. So what did you do your what did you do your bachelor's in then? Was it also psychology? Okay, okay. And so was it was it at that point, any like related to misophonia? Did you want to start to solve the misophonia conundrum at that point or was it a general interest in these kinds of

Simran Deep Singh [18:10]: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Adeel Ahmad [18:37]: The game.

Simran Deep Singh [18:38]: So I think my bachelor's is where my interest and curiosity about human mind just got more confirmed. But misophonia was not necessarily my research interest at the time. And also, at the time, I did not even know it was called misophonia. was just...

Adeel Ahmad [18:53]: Yeah.

Simran Deep Singh [19:00]: there are clocks ticking in the room that are too loud and unbearable. What is going on? That was this was why it was for me back then. like not just clocks, but like other examples could be someone walking and we're like, so in the UK we have carpets more or less everywhere. But that's not the same case in India. And if you're like wearing any slippers or anything, if you're walking around, there are times when they would be like, you know, just

Adeel Ahmad [19:02]: Mm-hmm. yeah.

Simran Deep Singh [19:29]: Yeah, I leave it to the imagination of the audience to imagine. But you would be hearing that, you would be hearing anything and everything and suddenly like that's the only thing you're hearing and all other sounds which can be beautiful and comforting, they just evaporate and all you can hear is this one particular thing across walls. So I think at the time it was not something definable for me.

Adeel Ahmad [19:31]: Yes. Mm-hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [19:58]: It was just this very strange experience of, I don't know what's going on, sounds are evil. And I did not even have someone to talk about this to until maybe probably at some point I looked it up and I was like, it has a word and some people are talking about it at some part of the world. And then I transitioned to my masters, which happened during COVID. And I think at the time my supervisor was

Adeel Ahmad [20:15]: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm.

Simran Deep Singh [20:27]: just very chilled in the sense that he suggested us to think of our own research questions before he would like give us any directions and stuff. And I was like, so here is the thing. There is something called misophonia. I would like to work on that. And he was like, but how do I know it's real? And then that was an entire, big challenge and process of making my supervisor at the time. and the Ethical Committee, Ethical Board of our department to make them believe it's a real condition that has been researched upon. On a very small scale, it's a thing people are talking about. But I'm glad they listened to me because I was able to, at the time I did a qualitative research and I did find very interesting patterns and themes. Which now in hindsight, feel like because my research questions were formulated, because I had an interview designed, my research questions were formulated to gather information about the data that I wanted them to talk about. So there is this entire maybe probably bias around in that research. But it's still confirmed my belief about relationships are important in this experience.

Adeel Ahmad [21:53]: Mm-hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [21:55]: But because of my own bias in that research, it made me feel like I need to do this work in a more detached manner, which is how here I am. In my PhD, I'm doing my research quantitatively. So even though maybe my curiosity still remains the same, that I am interested in how relationships, interpersonal dynamics, show up in this experience, not just as an effect.

Adeel Ahmad [22:10]: Mm-hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [22:22]: sorry, not just as something that is impacting the relationships, but also something that is maybe shaping the experience of misophonia. I just realized I forgot what I was saying. My sentence just got lost. I'm so sorry about that.

Adeel Ahmad [22:43]: No, no. Yeah, I think I I the the last question I'd asked you was just about how you got you y you chose to go into psychology and whether misphonia was part of that. But but now you've gone into some some a fascinating question. there's a number of things I bookmarked in my mind, but one fascinating thing is because I think a lot about and I think you have to when when once you start to identify that most of the research is very pain management and quantitative or

Simran Deep Singh [22:51]: Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [23:12]: or behavioral, it's very much w what you can measure and anything else is is kind of like downplayed. How are you I'm very curious, like how obviously you come from a very psychodynamic and analytical background. are you how are you thinking about being able to capture that quantitatively? the the kind of like boundary or or if there is a boundary between between those two sides.

Simran Deep Singh [23:20]: Mm-hmm. That is a very interesting question and I do not have any answer to that.

Adeel Ahmad [23:45]: Okay. Sorry, I just realized it was probably a yeah, maybe too big of a question for for right now, but at least you're thinking about it somehow.

Simran Deep Singh [23:54]: I am thinking about it but I think that has been so just to also again clarify I do not have a psychoanalytic background it's just been an interest of mine and something I read and think about as a hobby at this point of my life probably in the future I can maybe train in it more formally but at so far it's just a way of thinking for me which I'm still developing because I have very scarce resources for it

Adeel Ahmad [24:01]: Hm. Right. Yeah.

Simran Deep Singh [24:24]: but, I again forgot about what you just asked. I'm so sorry.

Adeel Ahmad [24:32]: yeah. Well yeah, no, no, no. It yeah, there's so many things to think about. I I get lost as well. But just I guess the the the kind of the qualitative and quantitative divide because you know, as you know in research right now, it it's at least from my layperson perspective, it's so focused on quantitative and what you what exactly you can measure. and that almost becomes a flywheel in that it it people only think about things

Simran Deep Singh [24:37]: Yeah. yeah,

Adeel Ahmad [25:00]: from the perspective of what we can measure as opposed to what attracted me to your thinking was much much I don't know, much deeper. And so how are how are you maybe thinking about how to incorporate quantitative tools in the type of deep thinking approaches to mensophonia that that you're that you're kinda going after?

Simran Deep Singh [25:20]: Yeah, so I think at the moment, my inclination is towards being able to find grounds to build more deeper questions about because I feel like we don't even have the foundations for the kind of work I'm thinking. And quantitative research is really helpful in that way because, sure, mean, self-diagnosis of misophonia, which has been the case for most of us so far.

Adeel Ahmad [25:39]: Mm-hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [25:50]: is the way to go about it but then there comes the entire personal bias around it or personal exaggeration about it but all of these questions are still something I'm developing and emerging and trying to understand myself but I do feel I mean I agree with what you're saying I don't think the research in Misophonia especially the quantitative research has been capturing the essence of it because It just feels so restrictive. I simply cannot answer in a survey on a scale of 1 to 5, for example, how uncomfortable metaphonia can be or the fact that it's not always so uncomfortable. It's very specific context in which it's so uncomfortable. But as I was also commenting on earlier that in the way I did my qualitative research,

Adeel Ahmad [26:29]: Mm-hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [26:49]: in during my masters also made me think about that I was finding I got the data I was specifically finding so that is also something that made me curious about the way that works out. So I don't know how to answer that. I'm still a PhD student but I think this kind of wisdom and knowledge might just come to me in its own time and With quantitative research, think right now we are just laying foundation on it because we still do not have any formal recognition of mesophonia as a real condition.

Adeel Ahmad [27:30]: Mhm. Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And and it gives me gives me a reason to c check in with you every once in a while to see how how your thinking has evolved as you've as you pursue your your PhD. and and yeah, actually but an another question was gonna be, yeah, I I guess on the state of Misophonia awareness in India at large, whether i you know, in the in the lived experience in the well in the general population as well as in in in the research. I mean I know

Simran Deep Singh [27:37]: Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [27:59]: Doctor Prashant Prabhu is is pretty well known, more from the kind of an audiological perspective, but I yeah, I guess on the on a wider scale, how is misophonia known about like is it known? And and what do you think about is it I mean you might not have s exact numbers, but like do you know other people with misophonia in India and is it is it prevalent in your view?

Simran Deep Singh [28:01]: Mm-hmm. prevalent, probably, but, so I did my research during COVID and I found the 11 people I interviewed through social media. And at the time, think more or less everyone responded in a similar fashion that it's, they are really relieved about the fact that someone has reached out to them about misophonia because

Adeel Ahmad [28:57]: Mm.

Simran Deep Singh [28:59]: so far they haven't heard someone talking about it which was also my experience because when I brought it up with my research supervisor and masters he was like I don't know if this is a real thing and that made me feel like so even researchers are so disconnected with that what about you know lay people so I'm sure the prevalence would be there just maybe not in with the name of misophonia

Adeel Ahmad [29:16]: Yeah.

Simran Deep Singh [29:29]: Very interestingly, I think last week I was having a conversation with a colleague and she's from China and she asked me if there's a Hindi term for Misophonia and it surprised me because she said there is a Chinese term for it and I was like, I'm not sure actually if there's a Hindi word for this condition which is also something really interesting to think about because our

Adeel Ahmad [29:49]: Hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [30:00]: My understanding of the condition of mental health in India is that it's very limited. It's not something, it's still a very big taboo actually. And people do not still take it seriously. It's not considered serious at all. and whatever research is being done, whatever conversations that happen, mostly happen in English, which is not the language everyone in India speaks. It's a very small number of people that speak English in India. So,

Adeel Ahmad [30:21]: Mm.

Simran Deep Singh [30:29]: and you would know that we have so many languages and I don't know if there's Misophonia equivalent term in any of those languages. Hindi is a language, I speak Hindi and Punjabi, I don't think I know of any terms.

Adeel Ahmad [30:44]: That's fascinating 'cause yeah, you think that eventually a language would create a term for something that is either being experienced or or just being valued as an experience. And it seems like, yeah, it it's it's it's not. i yeah and yeah, the taboo on mental health is is also interesting. And the fact that it's mostly spoken in English is another interesting thing is

Simran Deep Singh [30:56]: Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [31:12]: I mean that gets into a whole other conversation on on whether you know, how much how much the conversation about mental health is exported from the West in on to you know, onto other parts of the world. and and maybe there were other ways that 'cause obviously India is not shielded from like mental health issues or trauma from their from their past. you know, I wonder if there were other ways that that

Simran Deep Singh [31:14]: Yeah. Exactly. Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [31:42]: You know, Indians dealt with these kinds of things in the past that were maybe successful in different ways.

Simran Deep Singh [31:50]: Yeah, I mean, surely. Yeah, I mean, I know people who are actively trying to build vocabularies in our languages, so there is hope and there is work happening towards that. But so far, it's maybe still in the very infancy of its existence. But to answer your other question, I'm so sorry to interrupt, but

Adeel Ahmad [31:52]: But that's more for maybe anthropologists. Mm. So yeah.

Simran Deep Singh [32:19]: You asked me if I know anyone else who have mesophonia from India. I don't. I did end up befriending someone. I met as a part of my research recruitment. But other than that one person, I don't think I know anyone in India in my personal circle who has mesophonia or something similar. However, I feel like there are conversations in my family where they have been able to acknowledge that

Adeel Ahmad [32:22]: Yeah.

Simran Deep Singh [32:49]: they experience similar kind of sensitivity but for very different reasons I haven't been able to go to the nitty gritties of it to be able to understand if what they're talking about is also something that I'm talking about or it's something different but yeah.

Adeel Ahmad [32:52]: Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah, fascinating. And so when you you started psychology, I'm assuming it it was at a institution in India, is it is it studied or talked about differently than in other parts of the world? Or is it is it pretty standardized because it's in English and it's or or is it a different approach because you said that, you know, mental health is still kind of a taboo. I'm just kinda curious if this if you noticed any difference.

Simran Deep Singh [33:16]: Mm-hmm. I don't think I have a very clear answer to that. But it's definitely more... I feel like here the conversations around psychology and mental health and problems like misophonia and anxiety are more connected to the words you using. They are more felt, are more transparent and more honest to the essence of the word. So it just feels like when they are saying that they know what misophonia is, they do know what misophonia is or they do know what anxiety is. But for us, I think

Adeel Ahmad [34:05]: Mm, mm-hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [34:21]: the fact that most of my training was in English and I would imagine for us who grew up not speaking English as our native language and to learn something like anxiety would feel disconnected from our experience of however we describe anxiety as it does not have to be the word anxiety isn't it? So that way it just feels like our training, our conversations are so detached.

Adeel Ahmad [34:32]: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [34:51]: from what we have talked and felt in our language that and maybe just the fact that yes people are talking about it but do they actually believe in that because I also felt that I came across many professors many educators during my masters and bachelors who felt it felt like they just

Adeel Ahmad [35:08]: Mm-hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [35:22]: know about it from a research perspective, but not from a clinical perspective. So as to say that it does not feel like they have worked with people who have anxiety, for example. They just know about anxiety through literature they have read, but not through the work they have done or conversations they have had. But again, that's just my very naive understanding of all of it.

Adeel Ahmad [35:25]: Mm-hmm. Mm. Fascinating. and and yeah, and speaking of like yeah, other ways that it's expressed, I'm curious, kind of like before 18, like growing up, did you did you experience other mental health phenomena, anxiety or or or whatnot, that that you can recall and and if so, like how did you how was how did you express it and how was it talked about?

Simran Deep Singh [36:18]: I do feel even now that I very closely identify as a very sad and anxious person. Now not so much, but growing up I think this was if someone would ask me tell me something about yourself I would be like I'm just really sad and that that that's the association.

Adeel Ahmad [36:30]: Mm-hmm. I don't know why I don't know why I'm laughing, but I I can I mean obviously we can all relate to some in some way.

Simran Deep Singh [36:44]: Yeah, I mean, I feel like that was basically my entire identity. It felt to me just being a very sad, anxious child who would not have so many friends. And even if I would have friends, I would find really hard to be in those relationships. So that's, I think, yeah, that's why I said that when my bachelor started, I started to think about life and living beyond my anxiety and sadness. So that is what felt more shocking to my system that, I could have been this person all this time, but I just was not. Like I just couldn't be this person.

Adeel Ahmad [37:30]: Yeah. So what was your family like growing up early on? Did you have it sound like y you didn't have one of those gigantic Indian families, but did you have siblings and both your parents and there?

Simran Deep Singh [37:41]: So I do have a gigantic Indian family. It's just that, no, no, no. Yeah, no, I think you heard exactly right. So there's the fact about that my parents have had inter-religion marriage and my dad had a traveling job and my mom did not want to travel with him. And she also did not want to. So in our culture,

Adeel Ahmad [37:44]: okay. okay, maybe I misheard. Mm.

Simran Deep Singh [38:10]: After marriage, the woman goes and lives with the husband's family. My mom did not want her to do that. But also in our culture, we do not keep married daughters with us. That's another conversation. But for that reason, my mom had to live separately from both of our gigantic families. And because she was not traveling with my dad, he was also more or less absent for us growing up.

Adeel Ahmad [38:23]: Right.

Simran Deep Singh [38:40]: So it was just me, my mom and my sister who I have grown up with. But that does not mean that I would not visit my family. I do actually visit all my extended family members. It's just that our interaction was so much more limited in comparison to the people I've heard about. sorry, the people I have had conversations with. More or less, it's always that you live with the family and then...

Adeel Ahmad [38:40]: Mm.

Simran Deep Singh [39:10]: everything there.

Adeel Ahmad [39:13]: Okay, so yeah, not to get too deep into it. But your your dad was traveling a lot, so he and then you had you were like home base for you was with your mom, like that's where you slept at night kind of thing? Or Okay. And then and then her family where she grew up, they were they were s they were in a in a they were separate or was that the same house?

Simran Deep Singh [39:19]: Yeah. Yeah. It was the same house.

Adeel Ahmad [39:39]: okay, okay, gotcha. All right, okay, okay, it makes sense. Yeah. So yeah, you had a lot of people around you, I guess. Do you do you know why have you thought about like your your sadness and anxiety anxiety growing up? did you feel, I don't know, extra sensitive, like the you know, the h highly sensitive person kind of archetype? Was that something that you can kind of relate to?

Simran Deep Singh [40:06]: Mmm. I don't know, you would have to ask the 13 year old Simran. I can't answer that, I feel very detached to that person. And I was gonna say actually the words that I'm using now that I felt very sad and anxious all the time growing up. It's just the vocabulary I've learned as an adult. I don't think I had this vocabulary back then either. So I don't think I can actually respond.

Adeel Ahmad [40:14]: Yeah. Yeah. okay. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Fascinating.

Simran Deep Singh [40:39]: if I was extra sensitive, highly sensitive.

Adeel Ahmad [40:44]: Gotcha, gotcha. Okay. now okay, I think we took that detour to to your past. n now coming coming back to kind of maybe your yeah, your your your thoughts on on Misophonia now. So I mean we you know, we obviously went and and have been talking about the kind of psychodynamic ideas and relational just you know, in in the interest of like asking other questions. I mean, you know, there's people who come on on the podcast and they say like, well, they're

Simran Deep Singh [40:50]: Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [41:12]: only trigger is like a air conditioner or or a fridge or something. Like things that are not relational. maybe, maybe they were relational at at some point, honestly, but but it th the the sometimes they people come on and it's not the usual it's this person sound kind of thing. or another question that comes up is well my child n you know

Simran Deep Singh [41:16]: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [41:41]: was exhibiting these symptoms from a super early age. Like how could they possibly have how could it possibly be relational if they were so young kind of thing? I have my own ideas about that. But I'm curious if you've thought about these other, I guess, I don't know, branches of the Misophonia experience and how they might relate to kind of your your thinking.

Simran Deep Singh [41:53]: Mm-hmm. That has occupied my mind quite a bit, I must confess. That my entire thinking and curiosity only makes sense if we are talking about the human produced triggers, but not when we are talking about the gender sounds around us. For example, I know leaves rustling on a tree and stuff like that.

Adeel Ahmad [42:30]: Mm-hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [42:33]: So there's a quote I really like. I don't know the source of it, but it says that all the problems in the world are relational problems. And I think I might just want to fall back to that as a comfort, that perhaps it's the relationship you have with that object in that moment of time. I don't know if it makes sense, like for example, the way I can imagine is that if I'm really focused and I really, really, really want to get this one thing done, and I'm really trying hard but it's just not happening and then I know there's like suddenly I zone on, zone in to listening the hum of a dehumidifier for example, it would start pissing me off. I would be like, yeah.

Adeel Ahmad [42:57]: Yes. Mm-hmm. No, yeah, that's even worse than an air conditioner.

Simran Deep Singh [43:26]: I would be like, can like right now my relationship with myself and my work and the task that I want to do, whatever, it's just not the most smooth and maybe that is making everything else around me feel very overbearing.

Adeel Ahmad [43:37]: Mm-hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [43:45]: But I don't know if it's that deep. Like, I don't know. As I said, I think most of my triggers are very human-specific, very relationship-specific triggers. So my experience and thinking has been limited to that. But if I would step out of it, I think I would imagine it this way, that the relationship then also comes down to the relationship you have with yourself and the objects around you.

Adeel Ahmad [43:45]: Right.

Simran Deep Singh [44:15]: And how do you feel about them? How do you think about them?

Adeel Ahmad [44:18]: Yeah, that's fascinating. Like what you said there, the relationship you have with your with yourself and and and going back to that that the language of the language of your body, it it this this could all be a a some language of hypervigilance that we haven't fully figured out yet.

Simran Deep Singh [44:33]: Yeah, because again, I think the entire understanding of mine is also that the body is mistaking something probably innocent as something which is not innocent or not naive or like whatever would be the right word here, but something which is neutral to not be neutral anymore. And I think that kind of

Adeel Ahmad [44:55]: Mm-hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [45:02]: establishment can only come from a particular type of relationship you might have.

Adeel Ahmad [45:08]: Right, right. Yeah, and I I I don't want I'm I'm always like worried I'm over romanticizing now now misophonia is like a always like a a helpful heroic message, but yeah, it could be a a mi a mistaken non neutrality that that the body is kind of assigned to to something.

Simran Deep Singh [45:32]: Yeah.

Adeel Ahmad [45:33]: Fascinating. I think both our all of our thinking is evolving in regard to

Simran Deep Singh [45:38]: But I think you raised a very valid point here because I feel like I have been confronted to think about it this way as well, that my understanding is only limited to human specific triggers, my conceptualization, sorry. It won't probably be applicable to other things, but misophonia triggers are also so many other sounds which are not produced by humans.

Adeel Ahmad [46:09]: And then and speaking pushing a little bit further on other things, you know, obviously you've probably run into the idea of visual triggers and misokinesia and some people come on and they talk about physical triggers, you know, being uncomfortable, feeling certain things, but you know, tact tactily. have you thought about that? Like have you I mean I I kind of blabber on a often about how misophonia is not just about

Simran Deep Singh [46:13]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [46:39]: the whatever the message is, the language is is not just about sound and s how sound is is just simply the kind of the usually the first alarm. so have you I don't know, I guess have you thought about it a as as kind of a maybe a multi sensory issue?

Simran Deep Singh [46:49]: Mm-hmm. yeah, I do think about it and feel about it in this way that sounds, as you said, it's the first alarm, but gradually it evolves into visuals, it evolves into touch for me as well, and then I don't know about my other senses, but if I am really, really triggered, I would have to actually put myself in a sensory isolation.

Adeel Ahmad [47:12]: Hm. Mm-hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [47:25]: I had no system that would make me feel not that would make me not feel anything for a brief time before I can be back to the world. But I think that's like if you're talking about the body, that's just how bodies work, don't they? That they receive information from all the senses and I don't think it can be isolated to just one sense. Yeah.

Adeel Ahmad [47:47]: No. And we know that there there are more than five senses too, so who who knows what else is going on and whether th this is actually more part of another.

Simran Deep Singh [47:53]: Hmm. Yeah, yeah, I feel like so the research is now talking about mesokinesia and the visual triggers, but still I don't think there is enough conversations around the tactile sensory experience or other senses which might be involved. But yeah.

Adeel Ahmad [48:06]: Mm-hmm. Yeah, my fear is that, you know, we're splitting it. We're we're we're drawing we're gonna draw too much of a line between these two, like misophonia is this, misokinesia is that, where I hope that people realize or research it as a as a more collective phenomenon across senses. and do you want do you want to talk a little bit about I d I don't know if you mentioned or or can mention kind of like what the

Simran Deep Singh [48:25]: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Adeel Ahmad [48:45]: The PhD direction in particular is? Or maybe I just forgot.

Simran Deep Singh [48:49]: So no problem at all. I think my PhD is still looking into exploring the relationships. So I have completed one study so far, which was about loneliness and attachment styles and dyadic relationships among people with mesophonia and people without mesophonia. And we did find interesting. findings there, but the next projects that I'm doing right now is to be able to understand if, let's say, big life events, do they impact the variability of the triggers? And do the way people with mesophonia think about the world, does that impact the variability of triggers? So there's...

Adeel Ahmad [49:22]: Mm.

Simran Deep Singh [49:39]: A questionnaire that I was looking into which really fascinates me is about threat sensitivity and how people in general, how do they feel about other adventurous things that they may or may not do. But looking from that angle as well, the overall maybe the way people with misophonia otherwise also in their lives show up. How do they interact with the world around them? What is their relationship with themselves? What is their relationship with big life events happening around them? These are the directions I'm taking so far. Maybe it might change in a year's time.

Adeel Ahmad [50:20]: Yeah. No, that's fascinating. an another thing I've been reading about is just the you know, obviously the skyrocketing incidents of of mental health over the last whatever, two hundred years and how economic precarity and kind of a more mar kind of getting into kind of a bit of more of a Marxist lens is kind of like you know, popped up a lot of mental health issues and I'm I'm wondering if misophonia being so focused on hypervigilance, whether that kind of like everyone being worried about if they're if they're going if they're making enough money, if they're going to you know, survive or if they're keeping up with the rest of society is somehow part of the the language that our body's trying to warn us about.

Simran Deep Singh [51:03]: Mm-hmm. I mean 100%. We don't exist in social vacuums, do we?

Adeel Ahmad [51:10]: But I don't know if Yes, exactly. Exactly. and and so so the re yeah, the research you're doing, I'm I'm curious, because we're yeah, we're getting close to about an hour here. is there any way people can kind of help out with your research? we're as participants or, you know, other researchers who might want to connect?

Simran Deep Singh [51:34]: Yeah, mean, people who would be interested. the lab I work with here at SSX, we do look into different kinds of sensory phenomena. One of them is mesophonia. And we have an entire database and information, a website set up for that. And if people who are interested in participating in researches that we are doing, for example, we were doing not me, I was not involved in that project, but in my lab, someone was my secondary supervisor. I was running a clinical trial at the moment which I think just concluded in this week but that and stuff around mesokinesia is being researched upon in my lab so to look up that it's called mesophonia hub and I can like if you are aware of it so you can people can reach out to us there and see the more updated information and

Adeel Ahmad [52:21]: yeah, yeah.

Simran Deep Singh [52:32]: research that is coming out from our lab.

Adeel Ahmad [52:35]: Gotcha. Yeah, I know that's I'm I feel like who who who's the leader of that lab again? Let me just take a look. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. She does lot of research, I think. I mean that group does a lot of research. interesting. Okay. yeah, okay, and doc yeah, Dr. Ward is there. Yeah, I saw him yeah, I saw him give a keynote last year at the at the MRF and R Ronaldi and everybody. Okay, yeah, yeah. No, I knew that it's yeah, quite a well regarded

Simran Deep Singh [52:42]: Julia Semner and Jamie Ward? Yeah. Julia Semner is my supervisor actually. Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [53:04]: research group. So that's that's great. yeah, and Jane Dog yeah Jane Gregory's a consultant too. So she and I have definitely worked together in the past on her book. awesome, awesome. Well okay, well I mean yes, Simon, I mean like I said before, I'd love to have you on in the future as your as your research progresses.

Simran Deep Singh [53:06]: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [53:29]: Yeah, I'm glad to have your your kind of your your voice in the in the community and the in the research community. I don't anything I mean, feel free. Anything else you wanna you wanna share? I know we've covered a lot of ground already.

Simran Deep Singh [53:43]: I feel like I was at a conference last week and something that I very prominently felt was the detachment of the researchers from the work they are doing. But this is not just limited to misophonia, of course, I think this is applicable anywhere and everywhere. I felt like they...

Adeel Ahmad [54:00]: Yeah. We're not gonna just pick on misophonia researchers, but yes.

Simran Deep Singh [54:10]: can only think about what they're talking, but they can't really feel it. And unless you can imagine how it might feel like, you can't think more in real world implications of the research. So I think that is what is more important. feel like so many people who have misophonia around the world are frustrated and we want answers, but the research might not.

Adeel Ahmad [54:15]: Mm.

Simran Deep Singh [54:36]: the other conversations might not be providing those answers or validation or acknowledgement. So I do feel like there is this detachment from this really complicated conversation we are having. And maybe if there's a way to limit that detachment or make it more or less, that would be really nice because then we can think about how do we change it on a

Adeel Ahmad [54:47]: Mm-hmm.

Simran Deep Singh [55:06]: or how do we work with it on a very one-on-one interpersonal level?

Adeel Ahmad [55:12]: Right. Yeah, and like you said, it's this is a I I feel like this has become a global culturally wide thing where because people are looking for answers and we're at least in the US we're so governed by short term in insurance company friendly fixes that the bias tends to be towards like how can we get a quick fix of the symptom?

Simran Deep Singh [55:33]: Mm-hmm. But I don't think Misophonia can be quick fixed at all.

Adeel Ahmad [55:45]: Yes, I agree. Thank you for saying that. Yeah, so th I think this tension will be around for a while, but this is a another reason why I I'm so happy to have, you know, voices like yours on. so yeah, thank thanks again, Simon, for for coming on and and good luck with your work. and good luck to the to your research group and wanna congratulate them for for you know for higher for bringing you on.

Simran Deep Singh [55:47]: Thank

Adeel Ahmad [56:13]: So that's that's amazing. It's a great team that's that's that's growing over there.

Simran Deep Singh [56:18]: Absolutely, absolutely. I'm so grateful that I do not have to explain if mesophonia is a real thing anymore. Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me, Adil. This is really, really brilliant. I'm glad you are having these conversations as well.

Adeel Ahmad [56:24]: Right, right. Awesome. No Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's great. and yeah, I mean I I I I started it because I, you know, went to a conference and people were talking about their just brutal experiences they had since childhood, related to misophonia and and around misophonia and with the people who you know, with their family members who basically would

Simran Deep Singh [56:52]: Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [57:03]: you know, kind of cut them out of them. They would go on vacations and leave the child on their own, kind of thing, you know. It was it was very detached. And so, and so these stories, yeah, you don't you don't you don't read about in the in the in the news or in the research. And so the the idea was just to get as many of these stories online as possible. And it seems to be seems to be resonating. People are people are, you know, talking about how they'll listen to these episodes and just be be crying.

Simran Deep Singh [57:06]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Adeel Ahmad [57:32]: you know, for days. and so yeah, so y I mean this conversation's gonna help a lot of people as well. And not just not just like lived experienced people, but I think researchers who I'm hoping I'm there's gotta be people who are kind of thinking along your lines but maybe don't have the I don't know assertiveness to to kind of talk about the deeper ideas. So yeah, this is already one of my favorite episodes.

Simran Deep Singh [57:34]: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Aww, you're very kind.

Adeel Ahmad [58:02]: So cool. well yeah, thanks. Thanks again. I don't want to take too much more of your time. I know it's like Friday night probably in in the UK. So I hope you have a great weekend. And I will try to yeah, I'll try to get this out a as soon as possible, maybe next Wednesday or Thursday kind of thing, if I have time. But I'll I'll let you know.

Simran Deep Singh [58:11]: Mm-hmm. Thank you so much. I'm so excited.

Adeel Ahmad [58:26]: Yeah. Yeah. And tell tell your group hopefully hopefully we didn't I didn't be too critical about misphone researchers. But but I really appreciate the work that you guys are all doing over there. So yeah, I hope they like the episode too.

Simran Deep Singh [58:40]: Yeah.

Adeel Ahmad [58:42]: All right. Well have a have a good weekend and we'll we'll be in touch. Okay. Bye Superman.

Simran Deep Singh [58:44]: you too. Bye bye!