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Adeel Ahmad [0:00]: and we can get into it. So yeah, I'll say Emma, welcome to the podcast. Great to have you here.
Emma [0:05]: Thank you for having me.
Adeel Ahmad [0:07]: Cool. So yeah, I usually like to ask roughly kind of where people are located, a little bit about what they do.
Emma [0:15]: Well, I'm actually in Wales right now, but I'm not, I don't live in Wales. I'm here, let's call it a misophonia holiday, so that I can have a complete and utter break and be in complete control of my environment. I've not been here before, but it's very quiet and well, except for the next door neighbors, but they are very quiet and it's just birds and nature sounds and there's a little river trickling and I love the sound of water. So yeah, it's a Mifsophonia break holiday. But I'm actually, live in North London.
Adeel Ahmad [0:53]: It sounds amazing. Quite a contrast North London to where you are now. How did you just out of curious how did you find this place? Is it like Airbnb or Friends or
Emma [1:01]: It's Airbnb and I just, yeah, I just found it. And I knew I wanted to be near water. I knew I wanted to be very quiet. Other than that, was, she, on the blurb, said there were dogs and one of my noises, I'm not too bad with dogs, but I just don't like barking if it was like incessant. And she's got three dogs, but they only bark if someone comes up and.
Adeel Ahmad [1:24]: yeah.
Emma [1:30]: rarely has happened. So I actually go tomorrow. I've only been here since Monday. But it actually started off as a sort of a little break for me to focus on some reparenting in a child work, which is all kind of like actually turned into a massive sort of misophonia exploration, which I hadn't really counted on.
Adeel Ahmad [1:34]: Okay.
Emma [2:00]: So.
Adeel Ahmad [2:00]: Yeah, no, I love that. I love getting into that stuff, that kind of like personal archaeology, that comes with that.
Emma [2:05]: Yes, yes, and it's been a long journey.
Adeel Ahmad [2:09]: Yeah, okay. no, that's great. Thanks. Thanks for that that context. yeah. So obviously we'll have a lot to kinda go back. Maybe maybe I mean maybe we can kinda go reverse chrono yeah, maybe we can go reverse chronological, like in North London, what's what's gonna meet you back there when you go back? What's what's life like there?
Emma [2:29]: I live with my husband. This in August, we celebrate 30 years of marriage. It is a bit of considering I have had half misophonia. It's a miracle I think that we are still talking to each other. I've got at home three adultish children. So my daughter's 18 and my middle son is 21 and then I have a 24 year old. But he's just got engaged and he's very likely to move out soon-ish. But yeah, it's a full house and I'm an artist and I've always been an artist. Yeah.
Adeel Ahmad [3:02]: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. I I and any of them have misophonia themselves, or is it your
Emma [3:13]: I don't think on the same level, even at that age, I don't think on the same level. my, so, I mean, this will come into my story, but my youngest, has ADHD and my eldest, he is autistic. I am both. So these are all quite recent diagnosis for all of us. And my daughter, she's definitely had to... where get permission to wear loops for like exams and classrooms. My son, he has sensitivities, but it's not in neither is any like extreme as me even yeah, as I said, when I was their age. So I'm hoping fingers crossed that they wouldn't. My middle son has no neurodiver, you know, he's neurotypical as they say. And my husband is, yeah. And my husband, he definitely has quirks, but none like mine.
Adeel Ahmad [4:10]: Right. I sometimes call it zero divergent, but Enough said. yeah. So when did you so you sound like you you're s you're saying self diagnosis or self self in some cases self diagnosis happened recently. Is that was it recent when you found out that there was a name? kind of curious.
Emma [4:34]: Okay, so I'll start from because actually misophonia was the first I'm self-diagnosed as misophonic, but all the others I have a diagnosis. So misophonia began, I've always like felt different. I started getting misophonia symptoms when I was around, let's say 12, but like preteen, like typical. And I kept it a massive secret. I'll just give you the backstory and then I'll go into how it affects me, just like the skeleton of it. So I was not one of these misophones that shared my pain. So I kept it all hidden, like didn't say a word to nobody, nobody, actually nobody knew about it really until I became a proper adult, a huge embarrassment. And then I was talking, Two things happened just before lockdown. My son came to me, my eldest son saying, I think maybe mom, I'm autistic. I relate, there's a lot of the difficulty he has I related to, but it wasn't answering these eating sound problems that I had. And I was speaking to somebody else, a friend who is self-diagnosed autistic. And I was saying that, do you think I'm autistic? I've got these problems with these sounds and you know, they make me like my nervous system is on fire. It's a nightmare. I don't talk to anyone about it. said, no, Emma, that is not autism. That's something else. So it'd been a long time since I'd kind of looked into what it could be. And I guess like research and internet had caught up with it all and I just literally googled something to do with that sound and Misophonia came up. And I honestly thought I was the only person in the world that experienced it. It was massive, massive validation. And in that period, I did a little deep dive. That's when I made an artist book about Misophonia. I sort of hooked up with a couple of people. went... to a disastrous misophon meet up in central London, which I mean, it's actually was quite funny because everyone was triggering each other. It was in the most noisiest, echoist environment. was like the worst place you could possibly have a misophonia meet up. I don't even remember. saw it on the internet, but everything put me off and I literally put it in the box. I did go to the GP.
Adeel Ahmad [6:59]: Who organized that? I'm curious. Yeah. Okay.
Emma [7:13]: They offered me CBT. I was not interested because this has always felt so much bigger than anything that I thought a CBT therapist could do for me. So I compartmentalized it and gradually with time have started to use protection. So up to that point, I was not using any protection in my ears. It was horrendous. And That's when I kind of like then COVID happened. My son, as I said, talked to me about autism and then he then got a diagnosis. I was sort of invalidating. So there's a lot of invalidation that's been going on with me. And that also happened with autism, but I ended up getting a diagnosis for that. And then I ended up a year later getting a diagnosis of ADHD. So that's kind of like the bare bones of it all. But misophonia was the first thing I discovered about myself, but yet has been the last one that I've addressed. So in since I've been doing massive deep dives into autism and ADHD so that I can finally start to like do some self care and self compassion. And then, and had no intention of addressing misophonia. I'd got it sussed in my head because I just wear loops all the time and my AirPods, you But I went away with my husband two weeks ago to Dartmoor, which is like lovely and quiet in the countryside. And everything was fine. He knows we're in a sort of bed and breakfast kind of hotel. And we were sitting, he knows I have... difficulty eating with other people, particularly breakfast environments, because I'm not quite woken up and I'm still quite, you know, tense. So we were sitting outside, but it was lovely. We've had a heatwave in the UK, so was gorgeous. And it was the last day, it was the Friday morning, and we were drinking. The woman who...
Adeel Ahmad [9:14]: we know. yeah. We've heard about that too.
Emma [9:33]: Because I'm autistic, I'm not good at small talk. I'm not good at chatting. It's all very awkward for me, but I just, do it. I've learned to do it. But when you're then in a sort of misophonetrigory environment, I become even more stressed about these things. I'm making, I'm masking even more. It all becomes much more challenging. Anyway, she came along with our coffee and we're chatting about what we're doing and that day. And then I didn't have my loops in. which I normally wear because I can't hear properly when I have them in. And then it gets embarrassing. And then I can kind of, my husband might give me an evil look like, you're so embarrassing kind of thing. So I was trying to protect that. However, he then drank and made noises that just literally sent me into a misophonia attack.
Adeel Ahmad [10:22]: Mm.
Emma [10:32]: it took us, we were driving home, it took me three hours of rumination in the car with me fuming. And it's funny because I've been listening to some of your podcasts and I've been listening to Colleen, the therapist, the trauma. What's her name? Based in Barcelona. I can't remember.
Adeel Ahmad [10:55]: boy. yeah. Yeah, I've had so many. Jaleen? You take me Jaleen? okay, yeah. Yeah.
Emma [11:02]: No, no, haven't got one. She works with victims of sexual abuse and she had misophonia and she like sort of came IFS and she sort of has pretty much rid herself of it. Anyway, I was listening to her and she was talking about how when loved ones trigger us, we can be even more angry with them. because they should know better. So it feels like even more of a hurt. And that's kind of what was happening for me. So I was furious with him. And then it wasn't until Sunday, so this was Friday, and it wasn't until Sunday where I could really kind of like, I moved out of the shame and the guilt, which I then suffer from after the attack and the embarrassment and was able to sort of have it out with him. And then on the Thursday I had therapy. And my therapist knows I have misophonia, but as I said, I've never addressed it, because I just have always thought, well, what's there to say? You know, it's a horrible, horrible thing I have. No one can do anything about it. And it's like, it's black and dark and I don't want to give it the time, any more time than I have to. But I told her, because we'd had this awful argument and I've got so much anger in me that I've had for all these years. And I think I reached a point of like, shit, I've got to, I've got to look at this. And I had listened to a podcast before we'd gone to Dartmoor. So before this attack had happened, where somebody had talked about, sharing, she's a psychologist sharing her book called, Reparenting the Inner Child. And I had decided that I would have a couple, I tried doing it at home. I kept on getting interrupting. was I was crying. didn't want my kids to see me. thought this is big work. can't, need, because I've trouble concentrating anyway, I need quiet. So when I had that conversation with my therapist about the misophonia, I ended it and I said, maybe I should just book somewhere. And so I did. And I'm sitting here now. And then in that, cause I started listening to your podcast after I decided to engage with it. because your podcast didn't exist when I got my, when I diagnosed myself. And, I just couldn't believe that first of all, I engaged with it. And then, cause I made an appointment and I canceled it. I listened to a podcast and I can't, and I like, so I can't listen to this. And I messaged my best friend and I was like, no, this is a bad idea. I'm not engaging with this. and then I listened again to Jolene, the therapist. I think that's her name. And I got my husband to listen to it and we talked about it. And he, first thing he said was, well, this is obviously to do with the trauma of your childhood. That's where misophonia began. And so when I sort of started saying about how everything is just falling into place and like this has become a misophonia holiday, it really has. Everything that I've been exploring in the book. It all comes down to misophonia.
Adeel Ahmad [14:25]: Mm-hmm. Fascinating. I mean, yeah, thanks for yeah, getting into that and and and not not just getting into some some of these layers which we're gonna get into deeper, but also the timeline. I think a lot of us, it it's it's heart I don't know I don't want to say heartening, but it's kind of refreshing to hear how long it takes sometimes to get over some of this stuff. and you know, hours fuming and then days to kind of like you know, fully habit out with somebody. like it's this is a long process just from, you know, one or two things and and because it gets it it it's excavating things that you probably didn't think about going back to childhood.
Emma [14:57]: Yeah. I mean, I've known that I've got, you know, I have very low self-esteem. have always, you know, I know all these things. I've been in therapy for long time, but I've never really addressed, but I've never joined the dots with misophonia. I think that's because there's been so much gaslighting with it and with all my conditions, because I also have a chronic health condition.
Adeel Ahmad [15:14]: Mm. Yeah.
Emma [15:35]: called ankylosing spondylitis. And it's like an arthritic, the best way to describe it is like arthritis in my sacrilegic joints. And I didn't get diagnosed for that for eight years. So everything I've had, I've never had like anybody acknowledge or say, you know, to just take whatever I'm experiencing seriously. And that all feeds into my experiences growing up in my family. So my brothers, so in these whole couple of years, this has been going on. My dad became ill and died. And then I also found that in that period that my brothers both now have a diagnosis of ADHD. So I grew up in a household that was utterly like off the charts chaos and no adults holding any space and me just like not. being looked after, base, know, yes, I was fed, was, you know, there was no worries about money, thankfully, but in terms of emotional, like there was a lot of emotional neglect. And I'm sure I've, now I've listened to a few of your podcasts, I can see that this is genuinely a theme.
Adeel Ahmad [16:57]: Yes, that's one reason one one of the big reasons why I've been doing the podcast is I heard s you know, inklings of some of these stories six years ago and I and I decided we need to get these these kinds of stories out there to reach people like you who who, you know, weren't haven't connected to dots yet. And so I totally
Emma [17:14]: You are literally the first person I have spoken to about this. Like, don't speak to my best friend. I don't speak to anybody about it. It's like, I just can't believe that I've been holding onto this since the age of, let's say, 12.
Adeel Ahmad [17:19]: Mm-hmm. Yeah. do you wanna do you wanna maybe describe a little bit about what what the home home was like? You kinda shed a l a some light on it, but you had a couple of siblings. What what were your parents doing for a living? Like what was you know, what happened when they came home from work, that kind of stuff?
Emma [17:45]: Okay, I mean, I've also been thinking about epigenetics, because I'm Jewish, and obviously this past couple of years has been very traumatic for the Jewish community. So it's brought up a lot of trauma for me in that sense as well. But I'd already been thinking about sort of trauma for the Jewish community.
Adeel Ahmad [17:52]: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Emma [18:12]: But my, so my dad grew up in the East End of London. He had been here, his family, his parents were first cousins. I think that's probably illegal now. And there'd be...
Adeel Ahmad [18:26]: I'm ca I'm I'm South Asian so that happens all the time in our culture as well. So yeah. Not I'm not married to my first cousin, I'll just put that on the record, but it's it's in the it's in the community.
Emma [18:32]: I'm sure. There is a lot of autism in the Jewish community, you know, let's just put that there. So anyway, sorry, my mind can go all over the place. Yeah, so my dad, he grew up in the East End, huge poverty. So he was a very driven man. And he was a businessman. by the time, so just before I was born, they'd lost everything living out of.
Adeel Ahmad [18:49]: Yeah, sorry. And the same here.
Emma [19:05]: car and you know really really bad way so by so when my mum was pregnant there was would have been a lot of stress and before that she's got two boys both under the age of five both with undiagnosed ADHD my dad is working all hours that he can send my mum I think my mum is autistic I question whether my dad has had ADHD obviously you know you can't diagnose someone when they've passed away but it would answer some of his behavior. I also wonder if he had misophonia because he would be in the worst temper. Like, mill times. Mill times were very, very stressful. Lots of fist thumping. He hated it when I coughed. It's the only time he was horrible to me was when I coughed. My mum just wanted to, her mum was definitely depressed and very non-motherly. And so my mum just wanted to build a home. I think she had a very kind of naive idea about what being a homemaker was and the reality was she had these two crazy, crazy behaved boys. And then me and delighted with me because I was a girl and I would be, she treated me a bit like a doll and someone to dress and have a little show. But once I I am not like that. And once I started to get older and I asserted myself, did not like it. So, and my dad was, you I come from a very traditional conservative Jewish family. So I was brought up to be like, I was going to be a secretary. And then I was going to, so my dad started to become successful and he would talk about sending me off to finishing school, which is hilarious if you knew me. And, my we were all sent off to boarding school eventually but I was actually expelled from there after only a year but you know things like at home my middle brother bullied me badly my parents would leave go out they'd leave my brother I don't know if there was a babysitter but I'd be left with them and they'd tie me up in a chair I was just completely ignored I was
Adeel Ahmad [21:25]: Okay.
Emma [21:30]: constantly told that I was just, you know, moody, typical stuff, how you describe a girl who's not happy, crying in my room. I just was expected to be a good little girl. And I, the anger, I think, is just the layers of anger from having to repress all this constant never being able to. like stick up for myself. I would go to my mum, tell her that my brother was bullying me. She would just dismiss it. I had no adult, I had four grandparents till the age of 18, but they didn't look after me. Like no one was looking at, no one looked out for me.
Adeel Ahmad [22:12]: What about friends, teachers, school? How was that a different no, wow, okay.
Emma [22:17]: No, nothing. Sorry, don't want to start crying because this is why I don't go to it because it's very, very painful. But it makes sense, right? It makes sense that the nervous system would get so activated. It doesn't make sense that it's like eating noises and mouth noises, but that's completely weird. But it makes sense that, you know, our body feels under attack.
Adeel Ahmad [22:20]: Yeah. I yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. Yes.
Emma [22:47]: a survival mechanism.
Adeel Ahmad [22:48]: Right. Yeah, yeah, I've thought about the yeah, I don't there's many many whereas many many ways we can we can go there. First first of all, yeah mm
Emma [23:01]: And so and so my mom's background, my dad, my grandpa, they were fleeing the pogroms in Russia and my grandma, they were fleeing the pogroms in Poland. So, you know, you think about intergenerational, that's a lot.
Adeel Ahmad [23:14]: yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I've thought yeah, I thought about that too. And epigenetics has come come on the podcast podcast as well. and I I yeah, I I've I've thought about yeah, you know, communities that have dealt with a lot of that kind of trauma. I'm I and you meant you mentioned that there's a lot of autism in the Jewish community. I I've thought about like other things, maybe they're undiagnosed, but misophonia. do you hear about that?
Emma [23:43]: I don't know anyone with... No. I really honestly I don't know anybody. I don't know any...
Adeel Ahmad [23:44]: It doesn't sound like it 'cause you haven't talked to anybody. Right. Yeah. It's interesting 'cause I I think of misfilling now as kinda it's kind of a I don't want to say misfiring, but it's it's it's a r a rational response of of the body looking for dangers in in the modern world and maybe it's somehow a assigned it to obviously a a chaotic environment, and it's just trying to I don't know, wake up wake up this child that doesn't necessarily hasn't been you know Is kinda left alone and and obviously hasn't you know, learned about psychology and science and whatnot and and the body needs to warn us somehow that something is off. yeah.
Emma [24:31]: I don't know, it's like the fact that it's, you when you start to analyze the noises, it doesn't make sense. That's a bit where it's like, what? I mean, it does make sense in that, you know, I've got like very clear memories. I didn't have misophonia then, but like of those mill times. I don't know how old I was, I must've been about six. So I don't know, I don't know. You try and make sense of this.
Adeel Ahmad [24:37]: Right. Mm-hmm.
Emma [24:57]: condition and it's just nonsense, right? It's
Adeel Ahmad [25:01]: Yeah. Well when did you start feeling the the actual fight or flight at that at the at the dinner table? Was that around twelve? Yeah.
Emma [25:08]: Yeah, I have a very clear memory of being at my dad's brother's so we would do Shabbat dinners every week and we were there for a Shabbat dinner and he... I'm not gonna say... I'm actually not gonna say things because I don't wanna... I was listening to one of your podcasts and I got a bit triggered so I'm just actually... He was making a noise and it is my worst noise now, although I don't hear it very often.
Adeel Ahmad [25:30]: Yeah.
Emma [25:36]: thankfully. But my dad, he also did the same noise. And there were plenty of people that did that noise. But I would say then. Then, and I must have been, yeah, I must have been about 12 and then just sitting there. And I was not one of those kids that shouted at everybody, put their hands over this. mean, I think I've realized. I mean, everything I'm saying to you now, I've only kind of realized in the past couple of days is that fresh. it's, just, I'm shocked at how little I've actually given any thought to this. That's how much I hate having the condition. But I realized that...
Adeel Ahmad [26:16]: Yeah.
Emma [26:24]: God, I've completely forgot what I was going to Can you remember what I was saying?
Adeel Ahmad [26:26]: No, no, no, it's all right. I d I I probably have undiagnosed ADHD, so I d I don't I don't I don't remember. Well, I mean we were talking about so I mean the last question I asked was like when you first felt the fight or flight and then we were talking about your your uncle I think triggering you and have your yeah.
Emma [26:44]: Yeah. That's right. I realized the past couple of days that you know, I hadn't even given any like thought to the two words fight and flight. I always actually kept on saying fright and flight. But I realized that it never occurred to me I could fly. I've been stuck in fight. So I am deeply embedded in fight and I
Adeel Ahmad [27:00]: Ha ha.
Emma [27:12]: I completely, as you know, lose all cognitive function. So it never, it never occurs to me to leave, which is why I'm completely committed to wearing loops because then, and that's why also the incident with my husband was so difficult was because I was relaxed. know, I wasn't ready for danger. I wish I had more humor when it came to misophonia because
Adeel Ahmad [27:36]: Yes.
Emma [27:42]: Yeah, actually, it's quite funny.
Adeel Ahmad [27:44]: Yeah. No, and and it it is a in in many occasions a coping mechanism that a lot of people mention on the podcast. and so yeah. I mean you you Yeah, like you like you've only been starting to really press in the last couple of days. It the humor will the humor will come. I mean Jane Jane Gregory who's in the UK, she she's a stand up she does stand up comedy. She's at Oxford as a clinician and I I helped her write a book on misophonia, but she's also a stand up comedian. Yeah.
Emma [27:53]: Nothing. I wish I had more of that. I it, I bought the book, but I put it at home waiting for me. I didn't want to be here because I thought I've got to focus on the inner child.
Adeel Ahmad [28:14]: Yeah. Yeah. It's a little bit more in the s I'll say it's a it's it's a it's a well rounded book. A little bit more in the C B T I mean she's a C B T clinician, but it's it's got you know, it's got it's got something for everyone. Yeah. Well let's talk about I mean, let's talk about this week and the reparenting. I mean, this is a topic that I that I I think about a lot. And and it's interesting, like you, I'm like I'm always putting in
Emma [28:27]: I'm ready, I'm so ready now.
Adeel Ahmad [28:41]: putting these kinds of analyses off 'cause I feel like I need space, I need time, I need to not think about work and things like that. You've taken the you've taken the leap. I mean, this is brilliant. In a way.
Emma [28:48]: Yes, a lot. Well, yeah, I have taken the leap. I was not expecting the leap to involve misophonia.
Adeel Ahmad [29:00]: Gotcha. okay. Okay.
Emma [29:02]: Yeah, I took the, when I bought the book that I've been doing, it was, which is probably a blessing in disguise because if I had, wouldn't have done it. I mean, the resistance to misophonia is enormous. I'm a very open person. All my artwork is about, and now my artwork makes so much more sense. So I'm constantly, my artwork is all about rage. And then actually I,
Adeel Ahmad [29:13]: Mm-hmm.
Emma [29:32]: made in lockdown. So my husband's a hospital doctor and his hospital were the four, like they were in London, the first hospital to get the COVID cases and he's a doctor but he's also a manager and his role was overseeing A &E, accident emergency, so like to say that it was a very stressful period and I had my three kids at home
Adeel Ahmad [29:56]: Yeah.
Emma [29:58]: My two elders were taking A levels in GCSEs. My youngest had just started secondary school and I was at home, misophonia, finding out I had autism. I mean, it was just a lot. Anyway, I made this dress, which I only now realize, so I called the flying dress and it was so, you put this dress on and you literally just fly away. But yeah, so much of my work is about rage. So I just like, I had been addressing it, but just not in a...
Adeel Ahmad [30:08]: Yeah. Yeah.
Emma [30:27]: I'm a very self-aware person. I've done a lot of work on myself, but this is like being a no-go area.
Adeel Ahmad [30:36]: Yeah, so misplay and just not just suppress it. Don't don't talk about it at all. yeah, that's something I think a lot of us can relate to. and could you talk a little bit about y yeah, I mean, rage is such a taboo topic. with with
Emma [30:46]: Just. And then, you know, well, maybe just for women, let's say women in general. Yeah, I have a lot of it. And I would say if there's like something I need help with, I need a help with lot of stuff with this, but it's definitely my relationship. I would like to hear more conversations about relationships because that's suffered the most and causes me the most distress because I am just horrible.
Adeel Ahmad [30:57]: Especially w yeah, yeah. So absolutely. Mm-hmm.
Emma [31:21]: to my husband's called Morris, I'm horrible to him. And he becomes very defensive. So I don't in return get the compassion, which I feel I deserve because I'm living and can't escape from this awful, awful disorder that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemies. So yeah, he has a real problem with my rage. mean, like who wouldn't? I mean, I'm not like... I hardly get a tax now because I'm constantly wearing loops or I wear AirPods, but you know, get like, so it's just, it's very upsetting. I can't sit and just enjoy a meal with my kids and my husband. And, you know, I just feel often feel so left out. Must be what it's like when you can't hear, you know, they say how lonely you get you're hard of hearing. And if there's a lot, I'm okay if there's like two people, but if they were around a table, I can't really follow the conversation and I have to do that embarrassing thing. And then everyone kind of like either gets irritated with me or laughs at me. And also, you know, I've got ADHD, I've got terrible RSD with rejection sensitive disorder. I'm very, very, very sensitive to criticism. I'm a very, very sensitive person. And so I'm just constantly baffling with thinking that I'm a burden and that I suck the joy out of everything. And then also like in terms of, if you live with somebody and you've got their family, you know, it's like, I've got to the point now where I can't do it anymore. I've like literally reached my limit in terms of any family social events. I just haven't been going. And... I don't know how to communicate to Morris's family. We don't really see my family very much, but his family, they like, and it's all around food, because we're Jews, Jews love food. That's always the focus. And they're really loud. And yeah, I don't know if it's my age, I'll be 54 next week. So obviously menopausal, but I just feel like I can't do it anymore. And I don't, but I feel I need the skills to know how to communicate my needs and also what this condition is because I feel responsible that they take it personally. People take it so personally.
Adeel Ahmad [33:59]: Yeah. Yeah, I I and I'm I know a lot of others can relate. I mean, one thing I don't know, I don't know if it but you probably figured it out too. One one thing that's helping me is just reconnecting with art. For me it happens to be music and sound and this goes back to childhood too, and it actually I think relates to it's a long story, but relates to the the whole misophonia and childhood stuff. But I think reconnecting to that I can now go to some of these events and just If I need to just be lost in thought and think about those personal projects, I don't know.
Emma [34:34]: Yeah, I mean, I'm very fortunate that, you know, art, I have art because of my back condition and because of I need sense, I need to exercise basically for my condition. I swim, I'm a big swimmer. So, and we live near woods in London, I walk every day in the woods. So I have a very quiet life now, but I still feel that there's a lot of mess.
Adeel Ahmad [34:42]: Mm. Yeah.
Emma [35:02]: because there are a lot of people, they know I'm autistic. And what's funny is that people say that having ADHD seems more socially acceptable than being autistic. And it feels like being autistic is so much more acceptable than having misophonia. So people know I'm autistic, but it doesn't quite, they see other people who are autistic and who are out there socializing, but it's not. The truth is it's the misophonia. And I just don't know how to explain that.
Adeel Ahmad [35:18]: yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. That's it's it's it's a conundrum. I mean, people are trying to raise awareness but I mean it's gonna take decades, I think. I mean, you can raise awareness but it's not it's it's not people don't process it in in a in a way that makes sense to them.
Emma [35:51]: If you've got any therapists or any listeners who have got some advice for me, I'd be very happy to get it because I... yeah.
Adeel Ahmad [36:03]: Yeah, I mean part of it is I mean par part of it I guess is one one thing is one thing could be humor. another thing is you know, just trying to explain to people that it's yeah, it's sensitive it's nothing personal. I think that's one of the first things that leads the downward spiral is the whole if you can get in front of the defensiveness that can kind of like calm the situation 'cause for 'cause I think for the defensiveness is looks like a somebody's almost gonna attack you. Like it's it just adds to the danger. And if you can just kind of r reduce the danger. Yeah.
Emma [36:34]: Yeah, it makes me very, yeah, I'm already being under attack from this, you know, these noises. And so, I don't know, I'm in such a place of like feeling sorry for myself for having this condition, which I don't like feeling, but I do. That I just, all I want is just compassion from people and it's such a difficult.
Adeel Ahmad [36:40]: Right.
Emma [37:03]: disordered to give compassion to. But I mean, asked about the reparenting. you want to? It's been hard, actually. I'm so detached from... I've had to go back to like memories of childhood, which I don't have many of.
Adeel Ahmad [37:13]: That's what I wanted to get into a little bit. Yeah, what the process has been like. Yeah.
Emma [37:32]: And I'm kind of now towards the end of the book and it's all about kind of bringing in the reparenting. And the reparent is, so there's a lot of exercises now to do. But I've been keeping a journal, writing down everything. And this is obviously it's not just coming here reading the book and then I'm better. This is like, I don't know if I'm ever gonna be.
Adeel Ahmad [37:59]: Work. Yeah.
Emma [38:02]: recovered. I've like been so since I got my autism diagnosis, I've been all about self compassion, self compassion, you know, and validating myself, but I, I feel like this is helping it go deeper. Like I feel I now need to really accept my childhood before I can move on. And I think that to happen I really need to step into the pain of it. actually going to, my plan now is to look into perhaps getting some EDMR, EDMR, MDR, is it the drug?
Adeel Ahmad [38:41]: EMDR, EMDR, yeah. Not D A and not not I D intelligent dancing thing.
Emma [38:54]: No, so I mean, I was thinking about doing that anyway, but also, you know, since listening to your podcast, I've brain tapping, no, mapping, no brain spotting.
Adeel Ahmad [39:06]: Yeah. a brain spotting I yeah, you I maybe you've been thinking about Cresta. Cresta might may be the person that yeah, yeah, yeah. Cresta del Rimple, yeah.
Emma [39:11]: Yes, Presta, that's you. Yes, Presta. Yeah, so I've been thinking about doing that. I've also been thinking about somatic work. Just quickly, because I've remembered it. I don't want to go on a tangent, but just back to anger. So I've got this health condition, which, you know, I don't know if you know anybody with a health condition, but, you know, anger is a thing. Being in pain makes you angry. makes you very frustrated and very angry. So I've got like, you know, double whammy. But so yeah, I thought somatic work would be good, a good direction for me. Obviously I have my therapist. We're on a little break for the summer now. So I won't see her for four weeks. Probably a good thing actually, because then I can just carry on with the workbook. And just, yeah, just continue doing the exercises. I haven't been able to work in my studio because it's been so hot in there, but I think I'll just try and gently carry on and slowly, slowly, maybe by the age of, I'll be 54 next week, maybe by the age of 60, I might have made some headway.
Adeel Ahmad [40:22]: Yeah. Happy early birthday. I'm turning fifty tomorrow, so we're kind of we're yeah, we're kinda around the same ish. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Emma [40:35]: my god! So you're a cancer? Yeah, I don't know anything about it. I sounded like I did. I'm on the cusp. I am. I'm Leo Cancer.
Adeel Ahmad [40:45]: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think it maps to well at least what I've read about it. I'm not a big reader of that stuff, but it seems to map to what I've to w how people might describe me.
Emma [40:56]: Yeah, me too. Yeah, an anomaly.
Adeel Ahmad [41:00]: Yeah, yeah. And and so the the and the workbook so c I don't know, a couple maybe examples of some of the things that it's it's asking you to do. Is it is it I'm just kinda curious. I'm curious and I'm sure people listening are curious, yeah.
Emma [41:11]: I knew well, I've heard you talk about inner child. So Okay What I'll do maybe I've got very bad memory So I'm just gonna go to the and I actually started the book a few weeks ago. So I can't really remember So I'm just gonna read to you the contents like the chat So part one your inner child and it's
Adeel Ahmad [41:14]: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. perfect.
Emma [41:38]: Beyond Attachment Style, Your Origin Story. And then part two, The Impact of Your Environment, The Truth About Stress, The Traces of Your Ancestors, The Culture That Shaped You. Part three, The Scars We Carry, Your Wounded Inner Child, The Shadow of Shame. And I'm now on part four, which is Reparenting and Integration, The Total Healing Tool. So today I did some, very short, I've got a lot of resistance to body work. I did a very short amount. body work, where I was just sort of like activating, you know, skin, my skin and doing some thing, that kind of thing. I imagine that's what you do a lot in somatic work. don't know. And becoming whole and building resilience. So the reason I bought this book in particular, because I'm not a big self-help book person. Even though I've read, I like to read about like autism and ADHD. not great at like, yeah, I'm just not a good self help. But I like this one because it's reparenting. I like the idea of not sort of like, hold your inner child, you know, what would you say to your What would you write a letter to your inner child? I'm kind of, I don't feel that is deep enough for me. It felt like I had to, I've got to learn. No one else is gonna do it. So in terms of like, give me the validation.
Adeel Ahmad [42:50]: Yeah.
Emma [43:06]: That's gone now, that time is gone. And so I need to accept that and I need to start to learn to do it myself and to start acting like a grownup in my mind and look after myself. And I was thinking about this, I actually wrote down what I think I would have needed had I been diagnosed or, you know, my parents had, we'd gone to a... therapist and because I had misophonia, I told them about it and the therapist had talked to them and helped them, you know, know how to help me. Like, how would that have looked? And like that now to myself. So what parenting do I need to give myself to in order to like treating misophonia in myself?
Adeel Ahmad [43:47]: Mm-hmm. Fascinating. So the reparenting, and then s for for people listening, sometimes you might think of reparenting as going back to old memories and or or just trying to yeah, I I don't know. Well, you mean it there is some of that too too, and but but it's but it's also like to to what you said earlier, it's in the in real time in the day to day, learning to take care of yourself and give your and and learning how to attend to your own needs. Because you probably obviously you were not taught that growing up.
Emma [44:11]: She has. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. No, there's so much I wasn't taught. I'm just seeing where the workbook is. it's just here. I'll open it up and just see my journal I've been writing in, just so I can refresh. No, I'm not going to. I overshare, so I have to remember not to do that. I have to remember that there's not just you listening to this.
Adeel Ahmad [44:28]: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't have to read your whole journal. You don't have to read you don't have to tell us your personal personal thing. I know. I'm kidding, yeah. I'm welcome to it, but yeah, you don't Yeah.
Emma [44:57]: So, reparenting is rewiring acceptance of the past means making space for the truth of what hurt and what was missing. Instead of arguing with the inner critic, begin to notice it and practice redirecting your attention towards a kinder response to yourself. Practice naming emotions, so validation. Then I've written down about the things that give me pleasure. So I wrote a pleasure list. then accepting or realizing, so this is where the body work came in, where I was giving, stroking myself, or I was massaging my head, realizing that it's okay for me to feel pleasure and pleasure is good. So, recognising things that make me feel safe and I mean a lot of it I already do because I've already done that work and I think that she's also coming from a place where somebody's like not looking after themselves at all but I do because I started to do that after the autism diagnosis. So, glimmers which so this is like I'm just gonna throw things out called them glimmers signs of safety so I had to go through things that I use or notice that helped me feel safe and then I went a little bit into shame and the inner critic I think I had to write a letter to my inner critic and then it was like
Adeel Ahmad [46:23]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Emma [46:47]: I remember now had to go through the belief system of my family, what I grew up with, or how if I went to them upset, how was that dealt with? what kind of parenting did I experience? Was I criticized a lot? Were my feelings just ignored? So it's gone into all of that. It's a lot. So it's an intense couple of days that I'm...
Adeel Ahmad [47:10]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's
Emma [47:17]: Yeah, it's been hard. I've had to really push myself to do it. It's not easy.
Adeel Ahmad [47:21]: Yeah. And I I'm I you know, whatever gains are made, they're you know, they're not gonna happen overnight when you go back to to London. This is gonna be a process, but I I I've I feel like, you know, compared to a lot of the modern symptom based, manualized approaches that we have to conditions, to mental health conditions, I think I think you're I think the path you're going is is the right one. I mean yeah.
Emma [47:48]: feels right, it does feel right. I feel like, cause the other thing, what's the name of the therapist? So the other thing, I just listened to the last one she did on HSP. And she said that, you you need to put in the kind of stepping stones. Like, I think it says a lot that Misophonia has been the last one.
Adeel Ahmad [47:54]: Cresta? Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Emma [48:16]: that I've been able to address. And all this work, this has been work that I've been doing since that very first conversation with that friend where I said, you know, do you think I'm autistic? And she said, no, Emma, I think that's something else. So what was that? mean, you know, when was lockdown? I always forget, 2019. So that was, yeah, it was probably like 2018, 2018.
Adeel Ahmad [48:39]: twenty twenty. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Emma [48:44]: that conversation. that's a long time. And so, and then also, like she, she read out in the podcast, you know, all the things that Dr. Aaron suggests that we have to do. And one of them is like, know yourself. And so that's what I feel like I'm doing. I'm finally knowing myself.
Adeel Ahmad [49:07]: Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna ask you if 'cause you hadn't mentioned HSP earlier, but obviously it's i in the same
Emma [49:15]: Yeah, you know, I thought I so that was before the autism. it went misophonia. I've got misophonia. And then I heard about HSP. I've got HSP. Because my mom would say to me all the time, and you're so sensitive. It was like a real slur. And no, not so sensitive, too sensitive. And then I realized that I'm autistic. And it was whatever, that journey happened. And then it was in my diagnosis with autism, the psychologist said, have you thought about whether you were ADHD? So then I went down that path. So I don't think I could do the misophonia work without, I mean, I even had to buy this reparenting the inner child before I could face the misophonia work.
Adeel Ahmad [50:06]: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's amazing. yeah, like I said, I th I think this this feels like the right path for you if not for just for you for for many folks listening. So I hope to maybe like Chris to have you back on the podcast at some point or at least just kinda like hear how hear how things are going 'cause I I yeah, I'm I don't want to say excited but I'm hopeful.
Emma [50:24]: Yeah, well, I feel like I've finally ousted myself. I've come out of the closet. I've like re-done my, in my website, I've kind of done a properly honest account now about my work where I've included Misophonia in that because I've done a lot of kind of paintings of monsters and I now know it's to do with, you know. I see myself as a, become a monster. You just kind of like, you've used, you've used Incredible Hulk, right? But I've also heard. Yeah, you know, I really relate to that.
Adeel Ahmad [51:02]: yeah, Jekyll and Hyde, Incredible Hulk, all that, yeah. Yeah. No, it's great. And now I'm gonna have links to to all that and and anything else that may they may come up between now and when this episode goes goes live. yeah, I think art
Emma [51:22]: Thanks so much for doing this because, you know, for someone that's lived with this disorder for so long in, you know, complete privacy, I don't even know if that's, that's not the right word, but shame. It's, you know, it's really valuable, valuable work.
Adeel Ahmad [51:38]: Mm-hmm. Yep. No, I appreciate that. And and and I know that this conversation is going to help a lot of people listening as well. So this it's the kind of the it's a gift that'll keep on keep on giving. So I appreciate you you coming on and and you know sharing a lot of the well, it's very personal stuff. especially for some by someone who's kind of recently started to work on this. we're getting close to about an hour. I mean, is is there anything else you you'd like to share? You said a lot.
Emma [52:12]: No, no, I don't think so. I'm feeling quite exhausted now. My brain has gone into I can't get the words out mode.
Adeel Ahmad [52:15]: Yeah, you said a lot. Yeah. I totally totally understand. and let's yes, so yeah, let's le let's leave it at that. And yeah, thanks again, Emma, for coming coming on.
Emma [52:32]: you. I'll send you the links to the painting I made today and to my website and can have a look. If you go on to, if anyone wants to have look at my Mr Phonia book I made, it's in the artist book section of my website.
Adeel Ahmad [52:37]: Beautiful. And it's since we're talking about it's is it emma frank dot com or Emma Frank's dot co dot q. Okay, okay. I'll have that obviously linked in that show notes and all that stuff. So Okay. We will figure it out by the time this goes live. So don't don't go by what we were talking about right now. Okay, great, great, great, great.
Emma [52:49]: And let's do an S on the end, emmafranks.co.uk. It be Emma Frank's artist, I can't remember. Thank you so much, it's really good to meet you.
Adeel Ahmad [53:10]: and cut and that's kinda how I know in the editing when to