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Adeel [0:00]: Okay, cool. Well, Pia, welcome to the podcast. Great to have you here.
19210495 [0:06]: Great to be here, Adil. I'm very, very happy to meet you and finally talk to you.
Adeel [0:10]: Yeah, likewise, likewise. So, you know, if you've heard this show, you know I like to ask a little bit about kind of where you're located, what you do.
19210495 [0:19]: Yeah, so I mean, currently I'm in Mexico City. I'm about to move to London. yeah, I'm in Mexico City right now. I'm an actor, an artist and a therapist. Other things as well, basically those three.
Adeel [0:34]: Excellent, I love that. Yeah, I'm kind of like you, but yeah, just do a lot of different things that pique my interest. And I think that's probably common with lot of misophones. I think we're extra sensitive and I'm sure we'll get into lot of this stuff. Great, so I mean, well, what I mean, but why don't we start with misophonia? Like how does it affect your life right now? Like what's happening?
19210495 [0:43]: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's an interesting question because my ride with Mesophonia has been kind of up and down in a sense and currently I feel it's a little bit heightened again compared to the last couple of years. And it's probably also because I'm... I mean, I'm also autistic and have ADHD, so I'm ADHD, and I think I'm going through autistic burnout right now. So everything kind of gets heightened. But I mean, essentially, the, I mean, I guess it's pretty textbook misophonia, you know, the areas that, the areas in which it affects my life is, I mean, usually, you know, like social gatherings and social things just because they're, I mean, I guess it varies in each culture, but, you know, usually people get together for meals and, you know, just the type of triggers that I have are related to that kind of scenario. I mean, I get a bit, I mean, I think twice about you know, doing that kind of those kind of things with my friends. Also, I have to have specific dynamics with my partner, you know, to kind of accommodate the misophonia and other things. So, and I'm constantly looking for kind of like silent places, which is, I mean, it's a double edged sword because it, I mean, it is difficult at times, but it has also, I guess, helped my artistic practice in a sense.
Adeel [2:45]: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, I know for sure. Do you want to talk a little bit about autistic burnout? Because obviously people think about autism in relation to misophonia, but I don't know if a lot of people just know about how burnout plays into this and how so many things can cause burnout.
19210495 [2:47]: Thank you. Yeah, of course. I'll tell it from the perspective of, you know, not the HD person, a therapist or, you know, I mean, I won't give like a specific explanation, but the way in which I live it, guess, autistic burnout is a little bit different than normal kind of like burning out from work in the sense that it, I mean, it has to do with
Adeel [3:19]: Yeah.
19210495 [3:33]: I guess the system gets overloaded with, I mean, just a lot of kind of lot of input. And in my case, it has to do with, you know, years of masking and the overstimulation of the senses. And in my specific journey, I mean, I guess I always kind of knew that I was autistic, but it was two years ago that I kind of, I mean, that I got the diagnosis. I self-diagnosed and I kind of accepted, okay, I am autistic. And it's been a journey of kind of understanding what certain things happen in my life and why they happen. And there is a very interesting thing that, I mean, I'm tying it up with autistic burnout, something that I hear a lot with people who are late diagnosed, I mean, at first you can get, very excited because you finally have an explanation and words to explain your experience. And then it's quite common to experience kind of like a regression of abilities. And in my case, in many cases as well, it impacts our energy levels. So it's kind of like the system has been super overloaded for a really long time. And then when you finally realize, it's kind of like you give your body the permission to feel it. I mean, I feel super tired all the time and it also fluctuates. So there are days that are really good. My energies are better, others that are worse. And it doesn't have a, I you can't just make it go away by, you know, resting a week or so.
Adeel [5:05]: Mm-hmm. you
19210495 [5:25]: it usually takes a long time. So, yeah, I don't know if that answers.
Adeel [5:29]: Right. Yeah, I know. Absolutely. I also did a weeks ago, a couple months ago, took a validated online, know, couple tests and definitely indicated high masking, you know, autism spectrum on my part. And then, mean, obviously, everybody.
19210495 [5:52]: Okay.
Adeel [5:55]: read a lot of things and things that seem to resonate. And yeah, but after what you just said, I need to think about how my energy levels may have been affected. Because you're right, mean, once you discover things like that, I remember back to going in rabbit holes about Misophonia as well, your body definitely changes. Your mind changes and somehow it's realizing.
19210495 [6:21]: Yes.
Adeel [6:25]: what has happened, what's been going on. So, well, speaking of, sorry, go on, yeah, you were gonna say something.
19210495 [6:27]: Yeah. No, I was just going to say that. I've listened to many episodes of your podcast, which have been great. Thank you very much for them. But I mean, there's much more information about your guests than about you, but I have heard you mention, I think in a few episodes that you suspected that you were neurodivergent as well. I mean, definitely AHSP. Yeah.
Adeel [6:38]: Mm-hmm. Yeah, first straight just be and then and then masking just in general makes sense even even outside of missive. I'm so sorry, outside of like autism. I can just see how that develops and why that would have developed. You know, you know from a very young age. And yeah, taking the yeah, taking this kind of this. I forget what it's called, but it was a validated.
19210495 [7:08]: Yeah.
Adeel [7:23]: online, know, autism spectrum, survey questionnaire or whatnot that can score a high in. Yeah, that made sense. I mean, this is also, some of this stuff is relatively new to me. And so that's why some of the episodes you probably may not have heard some of that stuff or just heard my thinking kind of evolve. But yeah, for sure, HSP and then yeah, I'm starting to think about other things.
19210495 [7:53]: Yeah.
Adeel [7:54]: Definitely, yeah, definitely neurodivergence is happening here. But anyways, yeah, I mean, I'd be happy to talk about, you know, myself as well, but I'd to hear kind of going back since we're talking about things that kind of like lead up like what were, I don't know, some of the earliest memories for you in this, maybe in this for Misophonia in in particular.
19210495 [8:18]: Yeah, no, I mean, I've heard you ask this question before and I've heard that many people kind of experience it around nine, 10 years of age. I mean, it varies, but I don't necessarily, I mean, I don't remember life without mesophonia, but I don't really have memories before six, seven years of age. And most of the things, for instance, in deep therapy, when I think of my childhood for some reason, I always think of myself as a nine-year-old. So I suspect that it's kind of around that age when I started experiencing the symptoms. Of course, I didn't know it was mesophonia. But I mean, have a lot of memories, for instance, my mother and my father didn't live together. I mean, they separated when I was six.
Adeel [8:59]: Yeah.
19210495 [9:10]: But my father would come to take us to the beach every year. you know, I mean, in our house in Mexico, we would, I have two, a brother and a sister, and we would all have our separate room. But then when we would go to, I don't know, on vacation, my father would rent an apartment where all the kids would have one room. And I remember that I would have to wait for my brother and sister to fall asleep.
Adeel [9:15]: you you
19210495 [9:36]: and then go to the living room to sleep and then wake up before them so they wouldn't notice. And that was because of the grinding of the teeth. And I also remember the leading up to dinner time to be such a stressful moment. I would just spend hours dreading it. And all these things that I used to just associate. At first, I didn't even realize that it didn't happen to other people.
Adeel [9:54]: Yeah.
19210495 [10:07]: And then I just started thinking that I was just super intolerant and, you know, kind of mean person. Yeah, I remember more the triggers with my father, but it's, I mean, it's difficult to say if I didn't have them in the environment with my mother, because everything was super free with my mother. You know, we didn't necessarily have like a fixed
Adeel [10:10]: right.
19210495 [10:36]: family dinner time. I went to a Montessori school where we could just, you know, go outside and do our work and, know, in the fields or the garden. So in my father's environment, it was much more controlled and that's where I definitely remember a lot of triggers.
Adeel [10:39]: you Mm-mm. Interesting. Yeah, no, interesting to hear about that contrast between your mother's environment and your father's environment. Did your, at least your father and your siblings notice anything about your misophonia? or were you able to, it sounds like you were masking if you were going to the living room and then coming back before anyone noticed. That's kind early skills, skill building for masking. But did anyone notice anything?
19210495 [11:16]: I guess, I mean, I guess my father did notice in a sense because I would get sometimes I would just like have meltdowns when when we were having dinner. I, you know, I mean, he was also kind of like a very loud chewer. And at some point he had a girlfriend who was a terrible eater as well. And I mean, I just remember, you know, moments where I would
Adeel [11:40]: you
19210495 [11:45]: I don't know, just lose my cool and you I think that one time I even like grabbed my plate and started eating horribly like them and you know, said something horrible to them. So I guess he, you know, he probably sensed something in that area, but I don't think any of them noticed anything specific to the, you know, to those specific triggers or the sound.
Adeel [12:07]: Yeah. Gotcha. And, I mean, since we're kind of around the age, did your mom notice anything or was it really just night and day you were not triggered at all in her?
19210495 [12:23]: No, I mean, I think I was probably triggered in her environment as well. One of the things that I would very constantly do was in my room in the bathroom, I had a huge, like built-in wooden closet with really, really thick door. And that was kind of my safe place. So I would go there and lie on top of the shoes and close a huge door. And I also...
Adeel [12:39]: Hmm. Yeah.
19210495 [12:49]: always had to sleep with music really close to my ears. So I'm sure she noticed something, but I don't know if she specifically knew that it was related to sounds or anything. And they definitely never took me to see anybody or mentioned something kind of odd in that sense.
Adeel [12:54]: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. And so I mean, as you're growing up, what about at school or friends, how was that? Were you getting triggered there as well?
19210495 [13:19]: Yeah, I mean, it's a my whole academic experience or my whole academic journey has been super odd. mean, I've always kind of been in, I don't know, just in very alternative and schooling environments. But I do remember, I mean, I remember how I would always wait for people to go into the classroom, so I would be the last one, so I could choose strategically where to place myself. I mean, for me, it was better to be in the back, so I didn't have anybody, you know, triggering me from the back, which is, you know, for me, it's very much heightened when the sound comes from, you know, from behind me and when I can't see the trigger. And, you know, I would...
Adeel [13:49]: you Yeah. here.
19210495 [14:09]: very clearly know which of my classmates chewed gum or, you know, were snackers, things like that. But also when I studied, I mean, as I mentioned, I went to very kind of alternative schools, so it was pretty freeware in how to study. And usually there were very small classes. And I also did a lot of kind of like self study. And I would always be the one, you know, studying by myself and, you know, and all.
Adeel [14:22]: Mm-mm. Mm-hmm.
19210495 [14:38]: all those things. yeah, I mean, I guess I just had those coping strategies.
Adeel [14:40]: Yeah. Gotcha, gotcha. And it sounds like probably at some point art played a big role as you were growing up. And were you finding art as kind of sort of healing in a way or was it, I don't know, did you notice that connection? If there was one.
19210495 [14:55]: Yeah. I mean, I guess I think I found art later in my life. When I was younger, I really loved to dance. But for instance, many of my hobbies were by myself. I loved to dance, but I would dance by myself. I mean, liked hiking, and that was something that I did by myself. I didn't, for instance, play a lot of group sports.
Adeel [15:09]: Okay. Thank
19210495 [15:33]: But as life progressed, I do see myself kind of seeking all these very isolated experiences. I mean, I've gone traveling by myself several times in my life and it's always been by myself. I mean, when I was really young, I did go to Europe with a friend, but I usually seeked experiences by myself. I like the mountain because it's very...
Adeel [15:44]: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
19210495 [16:02]: You know, there are no sounds that trigger me there and it's silent. Yeah.
Adeel [16:02]: Yeah. yeah. Yeah, I've been looking at, man, if I'm going to move somewhere, I want to be, I want equidistance between like mountains and beach and bookstores so I can, you know, grab something and just read by myself or sit up in a mountain. Anyway, that's slightly, I kind of, yeah, going off on a tangent there, but yeah, yeah, so.
19210495 [16:14]: Yeah. That sounds ideal.
Adeel [16:31]: Yeah, dancing. So yeah, and then as you're going into college, so yeah, let's get more into kind of like towards, you what happened as you're becoming an adult. You're probably going out in the world. I guess when did you, well, I don't want to lose the, one thing you said earlier about deep therapy. So kind of want to hear about, guess, is that something that you studied in college or is that also something that you started to do later in life? becoming a therapist.
19210495 [17:03]: Yeah, so it's something that I did later in life. I mean, I started college studying political science. Then I left that. I mean, I didn't finish that. And I started studying acting. And I mean, I was an actor for a long time and I started doing art as well. But I trained as a therapist and it is tied with Misophonia. So I'll tell you about it in a moment.
Adeel [17:05]: Okay. Mmm. Okay. Yeah, take your time, take your time.
19210495 [17:30]: Yeah, no, I mean I trained maybe about six years ago. But the misophonia part, I mean, as all of us, we kind of start sensing that there's something happening with us that doesn't happen to everybody. But it wasn't until my early 20s that, you know, I mean, maybe before I did realize that it was related to sounds, that there were certain triggers that made me feel this way.
Adeel [17:46]: Right.
19210495 [18:00]: And, but I didn't, I mean, I didn't know it had a name. think it probably didn't have a name before. And it was in my early twenties that I, I mean, I had a partner and he would get very, I mean, he would take it very personally, for instance, you know, whenever I, I mean, I wasn't asking him not to do things, but, you I would cover my ears and in certain instances or. So I started searching online and I mean, I don't remember that article that you mentioned of the New York Times, but I started finding forums, you know, where other people were mentioning a similar problem. And I remember that I, you know, I gathered all those, you know, all that information and I, you know, I gave it to him and told him, no, this is actually something that, you know, that happens to other people. It's real.
Adeel [18:33]: you
19210495 [18:51]: And I think that as soon as I found that it had a name, I just started telling close people that this was something that I experienced. And at this time, or at this point in my life, I was working as an actor and I think the very little literature that I found said that it was a neurological problem, there was nothing one could do about it.
Adeel [18:59]: Yeah.
19210495 [19:20]: So I kind of just said, okay, this is something that, you know, that I'm going to have to deal with. And then, I mean, fast forwarding many years, I found, well, there was a friend of mine who, I mean, I started getting into, I know I'm jumping topics, but I know I've, mean, in one of these trips that I took, it, I mean, it was related to kind of like, I don't know, something.
Adeel [19:31]: Yeah. Please, no, no, yeah.
19210495 [19:49]: spiritual or energetic. And in this journey, I went to Scandinavia and I went to Scandinavia actually because I mean, the excuse was that I was going to research a topic for an art project. But my main reason for going to this part of the world was because I wanted to be in a place where I didn't understand the language. kind of like the the auditory input would just be noise instead of kind of needing to decode, you know, words.
Adeel [20:15]: huh.
19210495 [20:19]: And all these very strange, beautiful things happened in that trip to the point where I came back to Mexico and I kind of said, okay, you know, what is this? Where can I study, you know, magic or however, you know, this is called. And in that kind of research about where I could kind of learn about these experiences that I was having, I met with this friend who, I mean, I don't know, I started. probably the misophonia topic came up and he was in this school where I later trained and he put me in touch with a body mind therapist and I actually went to him to try and do something about misophonia and that was kind of the, I don't know, like the point where I kind of dove into, you know, spirituality therapy and all these types of things. He didn't really... I mean, the thing about deep therapy is that, I mean, whatever you do, in a sense, is also helping with all these things. But we didn't necessarily do anything specifically targeted to misophonia. And I don't remember it being particularly helpful for misophonia.
Adeel [21:41]: Mm.
19210495 [21:42]: But I went to therapy at that time. I had never been to therapy before and it was just so transformative and incredible in my life. I started studying shamanism and other things. That was kind of like my entry point. And then I started just going to lot of therapy retreats, group therapy retreats, taking therapy.
Adeel [21:50]: Mm-hmm.
19210495 [22:08]: And I just figured this is like so incredible and transformative that I'm gonna, you know, that I'm gonna study it myself.
Adeel [22:09]: wow, okay, excellent. Yeah, I I love to dive into many of those things. And in something you said, I mean, I guess, yeah, you said that what you did didn't really, I mean, it's transformative, but didn't necessarily, wasn't necessarily about Misophonia. I mean, as you've been doing this, has your experience with misophonia changed at all as you've been doing more of this? Don't ask. Okay.
19210495 [22:46]: Yes, completely. mean, at the beginning, I remember when I would go to these retreats, know, it was kind of like my worst nightmare, you know, to be in a room filled with people who were sitting very close to me. Probably all of them had snacks. You know, it was just really frightening for me. And I remember how, I mean, you know, from that moment to now, it's just completely different and better.
Adeel [22:52]: Yeah.
19210495 [23:15]: But the ways in which, mean, so, I mean, in all these group therapy retreats, I can tell you that every single technique that we did, every exercise, I would work with misophonia. So that was kind of like my main priority. And I think, mean, and it's not only therapy, you know, in these retreats, also, I mean, we meditate and, you know, we...
Adeel [23:33]: Yeah.
19210495 [23:43]: We kind of target three different areas, which are therapy, meditation and energy, which we usually do through exercise or with techniques such as Qigong. I don't know if you've heard of it, Qigong. But yeah, you probably...
Adeel [23:55]: No. Oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, I don't know how it was pronounced, but yeah, think I know the term, but I'd love to hear a little bit more about your explanation, because I think most people know meditation and in therapy and what.
19210495 [24:11]: Yeah, so I mean, the vision of this school is kind of, I mean, the end goal is self-realization or finding your true nature or liberate, however you want to call it. And kind of the idea is that for achieving that, I mean, and for your life to just get better in a way. It's ideal to do it through these three areas. Therapy, just because we live in this human physical body and we're very neurotic, so that's always helpful. The meditation part, because, even beyond all the kind physical benefits that meditation has, but if we go to a more spiritual level,
Adeel [24:48]: Yeah.
19210495 [25:06]: And the energy part, because it has a correlation also with therapy. essentially, our body in an ideal state should, just as our blood flows and all our organs are working optimally, ideally, energy should also just run through our body in a flow.
Adeel [25:22]: .
19210495 [25:34]: you know, from the ground to the sky through our body. But with all these experiences that we have that we can call trauma, which can present in the body as, you know, as chronic tension, the energy starts to get stagnated. And this also, you know, has a correlation with illnesses or, you know, it impacts our physical body. So in, you know, from
Adeel [25:46]: you.
19210495 [26:01]: I mean, from one level, working with the energy flow and harnessing energy helps with that energy flow to keep the body healthy at that level. And also at other levels, but that's kind of getting more into a more spiritual aspect. For us to also kind of...
Adeel [26:01]: you Thank
19210495 [26:31]: I don't know, achieve other, I don't want to call them abilities, to kind of, I don't know, expand our awareness or consciousness or, you know, our understanding. also need extra energy than the one that we normally get just through food, exercise. So, know, the, like the normal energy that we get in, in our life is, is good enough for the things that we do, you know, day to day. But if we want to achieve more, you know, we, need to harness.
Adeel [26:47]: Mm-mm. Yeah.
19210495 [27:00]: more energy. and it's very interesting because the, mean, one of the things that, so there are tons of types of Qigong. The one that I practice is called Seven Lotus. So it's essentially like seven different practices that you practice for, you know, each one you practice for months. But, and you start feeling physically how, you know, the energy is moving and such. And I remember very specifically when, you know, how the, I don't know, I don't even know how to explain it, you know, I like how I felt the energy moving through my body and kind of like going through my ears as well, kind of like opening them. And I've always felt that my left ear is more sensitive than the right one. So
Adeel [27:41]: Mm-hmm.
19210495 [27:54]: I don't know, with all these kind of components, know, therapy and meditation and Qigong as well, I started feeling how, I mean, I don't know if necessarily the, you know, like misophonia was getting better in itself, but the way my body reacted to the triggers was much better. Now with the understanding that I have through listening to your podcast. I can kind of think that actually it was getting better because I used to think about it as just a neurological problem. I thought, well, it's not necessarily changing my brain maybe, but it is changing the way I react to the trigger and how I feel much more at ease. Now I don't feel scared about going to a group therapy retreat.
Adeel [28:42]: Yeah. Yeah, so I mean, just to define it, neurological, I think most people, and I used to think, means that it's hardwired. Neurological technically doesn't necessarily mean it's hardwired. It just means that there is a brain interaction that could be chemical or whatnot. And that could be caused by...
19210495 [28:59]: Mm-hmm.
Adeel [29:11]: other things, it doesn't mean that it's hardwired. So it totally makes sense to me that, you know, that is, I mean, the brain is plastic, but neurological doesn't mean that it's hardwired. So yeah, I think that's a misconception that I feel like the traditional, you know, scientific community doesn't really, yeah, doesn't really explain well. And I think people, I mean, I think it's a disservice to people who just think that they're hardwired. I think you can work on this stuff. this stuff like mesophonia, while there may be genetic components, think there are, know, energy, you know, there are reasons why it develops. And I think, like yourself, you've been looking for ways to work on it, and I think it's a fascinating process, a journey that you've gone through. And I feel like there's definitely something there. And something that you said earlier about how you didn't feel like at the beginning, misophonia was being helped. I kind of want to ask you if misophonia was getting better as you did more of this. I don't feel like you need to target misophonia because I think it's related to a lot of different things. And I've said on the podcast before, I don't think misophonia, the term, might exist five, 10 years from now. I think we will probably find that it's a little bit part of more. holistic problem. I know, I said a bunch of stuff there, but I kind of piggyback off of what you said, because I think what you're talking about is resonating with how my thinking about misophonia has evolved from early on thinking it's a hardwired thing that is a deep, where I don't think it is. In fact, think it's the body, sorry, I didn't cut you off. In fact, I think it's very much the body.
19210495 [30:40]: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's it. No, no, no, please.
Adeel [31:07]: doing what it's supposed to do at some point making you hypervigilant to some perceived danger. I think if later on maybe you don't need that hypervigilance but you're not able to shake it off, I think there are practices like the ones that you're practicing that are helpful in telling your body, training your body that you don't need to carry this burden. or carry this responsibility to look for dangers. So yeah, please continue.
19210495 [31:40]: Yeah. No, no, it's super interesting everything that you say and I'm glad you made the, you know, the clarification with the neurological aspect because yeah, I mean, I was referring to how I used to think it was just hardwired. And I mean, and that's, that's actually why it has been so great to find your podcast because I mean, I'll tell you a few of the things that I, know, that I used to, I mean, that I have worked on.
Adeel [31:58]: Yeah.
19210495 [32:13]: specifically for Misophonia, when you thought that it was hardwired. But I I agree with you in that, you know, in that there is, I feel now that there is something that, you know, that we can do for it. It's also really interesting how you mentioned that maybe in a few years, you know, we won't have this name specifically, because we'll find that it has to do with other things. And I... I mean, in all this therapy journey, I won't tell you about all the things that I've done, but something that I did that I really saw the impact was working with self-hypnosis. And I know if it's a syndrome, there's no quick fix, one fix is all.
Adeel [33:01]: Mm-hmm.
19210495 [33:03]: But it was something that targeted specifically my nervous system. And it was something that I did say, okay, I'm going to work on this specific technique for a few months. And I did see the big impact specifically on that or with that technique. But... After listening also to some of the episodes, especially with a few of the therapists that you've had on the podcast, it started to kind of shift my perspective of how I was working in therapy with misophonia because I used to kind of target the nervous system and targeted as kind of like a coping mechanism even.
Adeel [33:31]: Mm-hmm.
19210495 [33:53]: you know, thinking, okay, this is the way my nervous system looks, feels, and the way I name it when I get triggered. And this is the optimal state, you know, so kind of training my body and my brain to be able to stay in this space of homeostasis. But in thinking of how trauma presents in the body and in the experience of a person, it makes complete sense that it's something that might have sparked from a different source, that at that point in our lives we didn't have either the maturity or maybe it was an ambivalent situation. In my case, for instance,
Adeel [34:22]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
19210495 [34:49]: I had a super happy childhood with many beautiful things. I was also, I think I experienced my father leaving the house or something really traumatic. My mother had problems with alcohol. There were all these components. And it does make a lot of sense that my six, seven-year-old self is seeing all this, experiencing it.
Adeel [34:55]: Mm-hmm. you
19210495 [35:19]: But it's really difficult for a six-year-old to hate their mother or be super angry at their father or even kind of like understand all those feelings. And that's something natural that happens with trauma. We identify something else that is easier to kind of relate to that. And that... stays in the body or it has an impact in the body usually through you know through through through sorry i'm blending out on the word i'm i my english is not on right now but it as tension that's that's what i was gonna say yeah so so yeah
Adeel [35:59]: No, it's great, but yeah, but, Yeah. No, yeah, I mean, I think you've described, well, you've obviously listened to a lot of podcast episodes, I think you've described a lot of that. One of the big common threads is that, yeah, there could be traditional trauma, but there could be just, I mean, you don't have a lot of life experience at age six. mean, we're talking about, as adults now, in retrospect, but at that age, like, that your body needs to make sense of what's happening and how to protect yourself, but also protect your caregivers who, if you're witnessing them having these issues, I mean, you're almost needing to sense the environment to protect them. I they're your caregivers and you kind of probably at some point, in some way, feel like you need to take care of them back. And that's a tough burden on a child. And... Yeah, so it's interesting. because mean, trauma comes up a lot and, you know, there are people who say, oh, I had no problems. But it's not, it's, you know, it's, know, seeing a, getting into a car accident is traumatic and some people's definitions, that's what that is. It's like some people's definitions of neurological is you're hardwired. I feel like there's a, I think if people dig deep enough, they might recognize something and or.
19210495 [37:15]: Yeah.
Adeel [37:36]: There's the idea of epigenetics where your past generations, and this is science, is not some woo-woo stuff, a past generation, know, something that happened to your parents could have passed to you. And that's scientific evolutionary mechanism. But yeah. I'm just trying to say, I think echoing what you've been saying and what I've been saying in other podcasts, it's a lot more complicated than just hyperventilating is due to a traditional mainstream understanding of trauma.
19210495 [38:14]: Yeah, and I think the word trauma feels very heavy for a lot of people. I think an understanding of trauma as an event that was too big for us at the moment is probably a better understanding. Because as you say, trauma doesn't necessarily have to be a car accident. It can be me needing my mom's love and my mom having to work a lot more than
Adeel [38:35]: Yeah. Right.
19210495 [38:43]: than what I would have liked and that can present as trauma as well. And it's not that the caregiver was a bad caregiver necessarily, but it's a mismatch on the needs and the capacities of the person. And what do you say about epigenetics is also, I mean, it resonates a lot with me. So in the type of therapy that I do, we also work with something called characterologies or defense systems, which I mean, I'm going to say it, you know, in a very simplistic way, but there, they have found, I mean, in some models, it's five and the one that I use a six, but basically there are, let's say like six body types or character defenses that develop in, you know, in the psychobiological progress of the person. So we have one that develops in the womb, one in the first year of age, first two, three, then a few years later. And these, I mean, they essentially represent kind of like the core wound that the person might have. So, I mean, just to give you a... I don't know, a quick example. The first one is called schizoid, which is not Freud's understanding of the schizoid. But it's a core wound that develops when we are in the womb. And it's usually related to a threat to our lives. And this doesn't mean that the mother was in an accident either. Maybe the mother...
Adeel [40:14]: you
19210495 [40:32]: I don't know, was worried about how they would financially sustain their life. So there was fear. And the baby senses that and it impacts the system and the body. And this also kind of like shapes the way our body is structured. It's easier, I feel, to think about it in energy terms.
Adeel [40:39]: Yeah.
19210495 [41:01]: So for instance, these body types are the type of bodies that are super, super thin, almost they might eat a lot and for some reason they don't gain weight. usually the neck feels kind of like disconnected from the body. So usually these people have like a very rich internal experience and it's...
Adeel [41:01]: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm.
19210495 [41:25]: It's almost as if you can look at them, but you feel that they're somewhere else. And if you think about it in energy terms, it's kind of like the energy is retracted. So, you know, maybe very cold hands, very cold feet, because they don't want to touch the world, know, the energy is inside. I and I mentioned this because a lot of the, you know, lot of the work and investigations that I've done related to my misophonia.
Adeel [41:54]: Yeah.
19210495 [41:54]: usually took me to memories that I couldn't place in my life. it was very recurring. I would have these experiences and I kept saying, but I have never experienced this in my life. we could get into a talk of past lives if we wanted to, but we could also get into epigenetics. You know, and who knows what the experience is, but it does resonate with me a lot.
Adeel [42:30]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. there's definitely something there. Yeah, I mean, I'll just say that the scientific research related to Misophonia and this kind of stuff, including epigenetics, which is completely scientific, is just so far behind. where it should be, where it could be. Yeah, that's very interesting. And that's why a lot of the, especially on the recent episodes, I tend to always ask, what was your mom's experience like growing up? Or what was your dad's experience like growing up? And I mean, like for most people, there is usually something difficult, like very difficult that happened. And so, actually another thing I wanna ask is,
19210495 [42:49]: Yeah.
Adeel [43:19]: Do you think there's, you know, the question of do you think misophony has always been around or has it, has it more prevalent in the last hundred years because of diagnoses or is there because of how society has evolved, especially in the last one or two hundred years that makes us have to be more vigilant? We have more, you know, we have to conform more. There's not as much authenticity. There's obviously more stresses. There could be financially and politically there's more, a little bit more instability or at least more, you're kind of on your own. There's much of a built in support system. Do you feel like any of that plays into Misophonia and related kind of... experiences.
19210495 [44:20]: Yes, and before I answer, I'm going to mute myself for a sec to cough.
Adeel [44:24]: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, please.
19210495 [44:30]: There. No, I mean, no, I really appreciate your editing, you know, how you put the, you know, the water sounds in the background. I love it. I used to not know that you were doing it and I just thought, this is so pleasant to listen to. And then when I heard you do it, was like, I'm so thankful. But anyhow, my, I mean, my opinion is completely, you know, uninformed, but I mean, I do feel that.
Adeel [44:31]: Nicely done, nicely done. yeah. Right.
19210495 [44:58]: that it has to do with our lifestyle. We're much more detached from nature than before. We're much more detached from other people. We live in a world that just has a ridiculous amount of stimuli that we didn't have before. I do think that we have always kind of lived in a world where you know, that doesn't give us the love that we need. I mean, to put it in, you know, simple terms. So there's always gonna be like an element of, you know, mismatch, of trauma, if you wanna call it that. But I feel that, you know, the, I mean, I don't think we live a very healthy lifestyle in most of the modern societies. And something that I've been thinking about is, I mean, in, I mean, I don't know, you know, how,
Adeel [45:32]: Yeah
19210495 [45:55]: you live or but you live in the in America, right? Yeah, so in
Adeel [45:59]: Yeah, yeah. Everything's chill and peaceful here. Everyone loves each other. Big sarcastic, yeah.
19210495 [46:04]: Gosh. Yeah, but I mean, it is a little bit more common in America and Mexico and the Western world to, you know, maybe you grow up in a family of, you know, a few siblings. When you go to college, you move out. Maybe you have a few roommates at some point, but you end up living together at some point and you form a family, know? So it's a, you know, there's a lot of agency in our in our cultures, in a sense. And in other places, I mean, it also happens in Mexico, but I remember when I was living in Nepal, it's quite common there to, in one building, have many, members of the family. And it also happens in a few places here in Mexico where you have one house and then...
Adeel [46:34]: you
19210495 [46:58]: you know, the son grows up, gets married, and then they build a room for the, you know, for the new married couple and their family and another one and another one. And I remember thinking when I was there, like, gosh, I would be miserable living, you know, in such an environment because there's no privacy. cannot run away from, you know, all the sounds. But then I also thought or I questioned whether, you know, like what
Adeel [47:04]: you
19210495 [47:27]: what came first, you know, if I had grown up in an environment where, you know, where that was the norm or when where that was, you know, kind of the custom, I don't know if I would have developed, I mean, I don't know if mesophony or not, but, know, maybe my system would have adapted in a different way. And, you know, maybe I would have learned to be more, I don't know, to be more at ease with other humans.
Adeel [47:53]: Yeah.
19210495 [47:56]: I don't know, but I definitely think that our current lifestyle is not that healthy for all of these mental things.
Adeel [48:04]: I absolutely agree. is again, yeah, absolutely agree. think, and this is something that I've thought about more and more just in the last six months to a year. mean, yeah, you're right. We're told we have to, mean, especially in the Western world, told it's a virtue to have agency and independence and freedom, but then eventually you have to conform. And I feel like there is, you have to conform to survive. You have to sell out in some way. you know, give up parts of yourself, parts of what you probably are, or authentically are. And this is on top of the, you know, whatever layers of hyper-vigilance that developed as a child, perhaps, in relation to your environment. I feel like we never have time to stop and contemplate. yeah, just, mean, contemplation is lost in our environment. probably due to all this attention economy stimulation that's thrown at us. I mean, it takes so much energy just to decipher whether an advertisement is an ad, whether what I'm listening to from anybody is an advertisement or not, you know? And I feel like that, and social media has not helped. And so I think...
19210495 [49:08]: Yeah. No.
Adeel [49:25]: Yeah, I'm kind of going on a tangent, but I don't know. feel like my original question was, do you think that there's something in the last 100, 200 years that has made Missifonia worse? I I think so, and I think it's more than just we're more aware of it. I think there is something.
19210495 [49:43]: Yeah, no. I agree with you and it's similar. mean, I the topic isn't, you know, autism, for instance, but I'm sure you've heard like, we have an epidemic of autism. I mean, you know, yeah, maybe our lifestyle is, you know, helping with more people being diagnosed, but it's not that we all of a sudden popped up, you know, today. It's just that we also have more, you know, more information. If there were...
Adeel [50:06]: Right.
19210495 [50:11]: there would have been information about misophonia when I was seven or eight. I would have been a person with misophonia, but there wasn't. So, you know, so I claimed it in my early twenties.
Adeel [50:21]: Yeah. Right, Yeah, mean, the last thing I was gonna there's also an epidemic, there literally is an epidemic, myopia, nearsightedness, nearsightedness epidemic, because, and this is a WHO epidemic, which most people don't know about, but it's technically an epidemic because people are in buildings more, you're not outside getting infrared light, red light, which is now being discovered as a treatment potentially for near-sightedness and it's because of our indoor built environment and now screens. In fact, actually screens are causing a dry eye issue because we're not, as we're watching stimuli as kids are watching stimuli on their iPads, they're not blinking. And so there's a lot more dry eye being, problems being, and this,
19210495 [50:58]: Wow. gosh.
Adeel [51:22]: This is coming from an eye doctor. This is not a, I'm not the eye doctor, but a talk to an eye doctor. So this is not me just making up speculation. I don't know. I just bring those up as parallels to other sensory issues due to our lifestyle, which there there's trade-offs with our lifestyle.
19210495 [51:25]: Yeah. No, it makes complete sense. I mean, the decline in mental health as well. I definitely see the correlation there. And what do you say makes complete sense? I mean, it's a bit scary.
Adeel [51:48]: Hmm. Yeah, yeah, well, there's a philosopher, author that I've grabbed, Byung-Chul Han, who mentioned that we've gone from immunological, we've kind of conquered in some way a lot of immunological issues with vaccines and whatnot. And our society has kind of, our lifestyle has helped with that. But part of the trade off I think is, he calls it neuronal issues, which are all these issues, which are. depression, ADHD and whatnot. know, the virtue to be entrepreneurial, which has kind of helped overcome a lot of those physical issues, is now playing out as actually having a trade-off of these psychological issues, or at least amplifying issues that may not have, you know, would may not have Maybe they wouldn't have been as serious as they are now, like our misophonia and whatnot.
19210495 [52:58]: Yeah. Yeah.
Adeel [52:59]: So I don't know if any of that makes sense, but these are the things that can roll.
19210495 [53:03]: No, doesn't. I wanted to ask you a question. Do you, I mean, are there any nature sounds that trigger you?
Adeel [53:17]: Not off the top of my head. mean, I'm thinking that because you said you enjoy going hiking and I love that too, or going for runs or cycling. I don't know if there are not any that kind of like stick out as bad triggers. But yeah, what about yourself?
19210495 [53:38]: Yeah. Yeah, no. I don't have any nature triggers. Not even, for instance, if my cat or another animal is doing the same thing that a human would do, I don't get triggered by them. And I'm just, I mean, I was asking because of what you were saying in terms of the way our lifestyles are built nowadays. I think that there's lack in...
Adeel [53:45]: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. you
19210495 [54:09]: both human connection, human touch, human interaction, and also connection with our environment, our land, our world, nature. I have heard a few people who do have triggers with nature and who get triggered by pets, for instance, but in my case, I've always identified that it's only human sounds. And I feel a bit sad because it's mostly... It's mostly sounds that humans do when you know that signal that they're alive or that they're happy. So I find it strange, but yeah.
Adeel [54:44]: Mmm. Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah, because it's those breathing, eating, coughing sounds to kind of help, know. Yeah, that's interesting that you're right that it happens to me. yeah, eating is like obviously enjoying, having to live but also enjoying something. Yeah, I if there's, I've never thought about it that way. Do you want to talk about a little bit about, so you do deep therapy, do you have, like how does that work?
19210495 [55:10]: Yeah. Thank
Adeel [55:19]: What do you usually do there? How do they find you?
19210495 [55:26]: Yeah, well, I mean, I do body mind transpersonal therapy and I usually work one on one with people. Sometimes I also do workshops. I mean, I'm currently in a moment where I'm rethinking, you know, I think I'm going to shift my practice because I mean, thus far I've just, you know, seen clients of all walks of life. And I mean, usually people come to me, the people who come to me are usually people that are, you know, interested in alternative, you know, exercises that want to get in touch with the body that, you know, that are kind of open to other ways of healing. But in this, you know, in these past months, I've, I mean, I told you that I started a neurodivergent group. And especially in Spanish, there's
Adeel [56:22]: Yeah. Yeah.
19210495 [56:23]: you know, there's still a really long way to go in that arena. So I don't know, I'm thinking if I want to kind of, you know, shift a little bit towards, you know, kind of targeting that population and also helping people with kind of like sensory issues, maybe misophonia, but particularly with misophonia, I mean, I have... a few clients who have misophonia and I have worked with them still with my previous understanding of misophonia as it being something that was hardwired. So I feel that for doing that and shifting my practice to helping people with misophonia, for instance, I want to do a lot more research and really understand how other people are also working with this.
Adeel [57:00]: Hmm. you
19210495 [57:19]: Because the ways in which I have worked with a few clients with misophonia has usually been, mean, deep therapy, because it goes deep and works with trauma, it's going to be helping even if you're not targeting specifically misophonia. the things specifically that I have done for misophonia have been through hypnosis and through self-hypnosis.
Adeel [57:35]: Right.
19210495 [57:45]: So, and in that sense, our work has been more towards the nervous system and regulating the nervous system. So, I mean, the way I have worked with it with myself and also with my clients is usually when we're going to work with Missifonia. Usually we have a session where we talk about I mean, we do talk about kind of the triggers, you what they make them feel, how they experience it in the body. you know, and we don't usually, I mean, we don't only use words, but, you know, I also ask them to, you know, visualize things to see, you know, which symbols arise. I like to work a lot with symbols and dreams, you know, things like that to access the unconscious. And we kind of
Adeel [58:35]: Hmm.
19210495 [58:40]: come to kind of like diagram or understand a few key words, how they envision their nervous system and their body feeling when they're triggered, and the of like the things that they are missing because of that, the things that they're not being able to experience because of these triggers. And then we create the kind of like the opposite or the optimal space, you know, how if the nervous system when being triggered, I don't know, I imagine it as there's fire coming out from my, you know, from my ears and my brain feels spiky and, know, and these are the words that I associate with it. How would it look and feel, you know, in the optimal space? So we have a session for working with that. I mean, if it's self-hypnosis, I teach them the self-hypnosis technique. If it's hypnosis, I work with them on this. And it's basically, when they are in the hypnotic state, we work with this image, symbol, words that we created, not created, but found as the optimal space for the triggers.
Adeel [1:00]: It is.
19210495 [1:00]: And there's also some techniques for shifting the energy, the energy and the associations. So the negative associations that are related to misophonia. We do a few exercises and techniques for kind of like grabbing that energy, putting it somewhere else. And by energy, it can contain emotions, feelings, memories to kind of, in a sense, replace it. with new associations, which are not a lie or are not self-generated. They're also there, but it's kind of like shifting the perspective from it.
Adeel [1:00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This feels a bit like, I mean, memory reconsolidation is a term that's come up on the podcast and there's different ways to describe it, different flavors of it, but it's ultimately the same thing. It's breaking an association and replacing it. That's fascinating. And then thank you for, yeah, thank you for going to that deal because usually people hear about hypnosis, hypnosis and misphonia, but then, you know, don't really get...
19210495 [1:01]: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Adeel [1:01]: it described as well as you just did. Yeah, that's fascinating. And what kind of training did you do for this? you go to a particular school? I mean, you did mention the school, or the program. I'm just kind of curious for folks who listening.
19210495 [1:01]: I- Yeah, I studied, the school is called Onpagani and my teacher is called, he's Mexican but he lives in Canada. He's called Carlos de Leon with an American accent. yeah, so the, mean the whole, it's a, I mean it's a school that blends, you know, therapy, spiritual practices or spiritual paths and you know, and other things. But the,
Adeel [1:01]: Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
19210495 [1:02]: I mean, the vision is that therapy is also, you know, kind of like a path for liberation or individuation, if you want to use a more, you know, psychological term. So, I mean, in that context, I studied, I mean, as I mentioned, I first studied shamanism for like three years and a half. Then I trained, I mean, I became a body mind therapist and that was also like a three and a half year training. And then I did kind of like additional training. So, I mean, I studied Taoism for.
Adeel [1:02]: Yeah.
19210495 [1:02]: three years as well, dream work. Hypnosis was a two year program. it's kind of like the core, I mean, the core training is body mind transpersonal therapy. And then I did other trainings kind of to support that technique. And it's really great because I mean, in the toolbox, we as therapists have, know, I mean, some of us have many techniques, but it's, I mean,
Adeel [1:02]: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
19210495 [1:03]: I guess it's a mix between the things you as a therapist enjoy the most, the things that you feel that you're better suited and capable for working with. And also, you can't necessarily use the same technique with every person. Just because also, I find people who maybe aren't open to hypnosis, or maybe they're fearful of hypnosis, or...
Adeel [1:03]: Mm-hmm.
19210495 [1:03]: they have negative associations with it. maybe for them, hypnosis is not necessarily the best route.
Adeel [1:03]: Right, interesting, okay, okay. Great, well, mean, obviously, we could go on. Maybe it would be great to have you on in the future to continue our conversation. already like a little bit over an hour into this. been fascinating. And actually, you're gonna like the next, yeah, yeah, what? The episode that comes right before you is about someone.
19210495 [1:04]: my goodness.
Adeel [1:04]: Lila who's been on the podcast a couple times and she's she's now in Canada practicing hypnosis and so I think you're gonna like that episode because it's... Did you talk to her? Did I connect you? Okay I feel like maybe we talked about this okay
19210495 [1:04]: I actually, yeah I did. Yeah, I mean one of the first episodes I listened to was her episode. think, I don't know if she had been here before, but the one where she talks about her experience with hypnosis. And because I was working with a client with hypnosis, I was very interested and I did reach out to her. I mean she's amazing, she's really great.
Adeel [1:04]: Yeah.
19210495 [1:04]: We had a brief chat. Hopefully in the future I'll also get to work with her to see what her approach is. But yeah, I'll definitely listen to that episode as well.
Adeel [1:04]: Yeah. Yeah, well you'll hear about the approach pretty soon. just need to find the time to edit all this stuff. yeah, yeah, so obviously I thought of this. And then when you said Canada, I was like, oh, I mean, I'm Canadian as well as you'll hear on that episode. yeah, was very, yeah, very interesting. I mean, I'm not in Canada now. I mean, I'm in Minnesota, but yeah, I did.
19210495 [1:05]: I didn't know. That's a... Well, my school is in Canada. It's in Vancouver Island. Well, I mean, most of the trainings that I did were near Vancouver, but the place where my teacher lives is there. So I studied in Canada a lot. I love Canada.
Adeel [1:05]: we're in Canada, Okay, okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah, Vancouver Island, Victoria, that's kind of like one of my dream places to live. Okay, well we'll start a little missifonia or whatever we call it then, a little commune or something over there in the future, that'd be great. And do some hiking. Which gets, well I mean, I might cut this up, but it does, you know,
19210495 [1:05]: Mine too. It used to be, yes. Yes. Yes.
Adeel [1:06]: I've had, essentially what you were talking about, retreats and whatnot, I have, you know, I have this dream of having, I don't want to call it a retreat, but some kind of, program where it's obviously nature related, where people can like learn about all these things that you're not told about when you're growing up in a, you know, in the modern, late modernity environment, Western environment. All these concepts you just kind of maybe hear about in passing, but I think they're a lot more important than, you know, what you usually hear about is you got to take your pills and get your brain scanned and whatnot. And so, I don't know, maybe we'll also do retreats or something. Vancouver Island where people can live. So let's talk about maybe that maybe on the next time we come on the show. Anyways yeah yeah this has been great I'd love to yeah I mean any any final words I should say.
19210495 [1:06]: I love that idea. That's great. No, I mean, I'm just really grateful to you for, you know, for starting this podcast. It's, I mean, it's really great to find information about Misophonia, but then, you know, also such rich information, I think that, I mean, not only have you interviewed really amazing guests, but you're also a really, a really good interviewer. I've enjoyed them a lot. And I mean, and really thank you because my I mean, when I kind of understood that there might be something that I could do to really heal Misophonia to a much greater extent, it was such a happy moment for me. And also, thinking about the work that I do and working with other people, I would really love to be able to help other people in this way. So thank you very much.
Adeel [1:07]: Hmm. I appreciate that and yeah, but that's kind of that makes us all worth doing And it was meant to this was just meant to be kind of like a living art installation for people who never Didn't really believe it, you know, or just didn't understand what's going on with them and Yeah, just it means the world that you know, obviously helping a lot of people so Let's just leave it at that. Thank you again. Yeah and Yeah, it's gonna help a lot of people.
19210495 [1:08]: Thank you.
Adeel [1:08]: and cut and that's kind of how I know I'll just stop the recording.